Are Things Outdated??

[MJS]

Often times we hear people say that certain things in a given art would not be effective against the way people fight today. Things such as a step thru punch, which we see in many arts, people will say that nobody punches like that anymore. Another thing to look at is weapon defenses. Many times we'll see the attack done in a static fashion, with little to no resistance, while the defender goes through a series of moves, not taking into consideration that the attacker, in real life, is not going to just stand there.

My question is: Is there anything in your art that you feel could be or needs to be improved upon?

Mike

 

[Navarre]

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan has a rising block as one of its basics. The block is designed to protect the head from attack.

It rises in front of the body, about one fist width away from the torso, and rises over the head. It snaps into position, covers the head entirely from side to side, still one fist width from the head, and is exucuted and completed at a 45 degree angle.

The block is supposed to meet the strike so as to deflect, not suffer the full impact from being static. The angle of the block is aso designed to allow the striking force to be deflected.

While this block is better than nothing against a head assault, I would still expect to receive serious injury to my arm (and probably still to my head). The fact that it is taught as a basic of the system (learned within a week or so of beginning) is where I have the issue.

I don't feel the technique takes into consideration the power of a strike from a baseball bat, stick, or pipe. I feel it is more important to understand the concept of distance, closing the gap on the opponent to both protect oneself and initiate an attack.

I'm not opposed to the technique as far as covering a vital area. I simply have opposition to it being taught as a staple of the system.

 

[terryl965]

MJS I believe all Arts need to be improved all the time to keep up with changes in life, with that being said we must never forget the past of said Art. Take TKD for instance it has become a water down sport for the majority, but for those of us that remember the old ways we are able to redifine the new in the Art without losing the past.
Terry

 

[Makalakumu]

Often times we hear people say that certain things in a given art would not be effective against the way people fight today.

I think that the only reason it doesn't seem effective is because we were not taught properly. One thing that I've learned by training in a KMA is that certain misconceptions amplify once the art is passed third and forth hand from culture to culture. I'm sure the same could be said of any art that is two, three, or four steps from its origins.

Things such as a step thru punch, which we see in many arts, people will say that nobody punches like that anymore.

Sure, nobody throws a jab like a step through punch, or a cross, or a hook. However, that isn't the point of the step through punch. The footwork of the step through punch is a front stance, which shows the tori how to move at 45 degree angles from the line of attack. With the hands, one is pulling and pushing and this can be many things from a grab and attack to a getting kazushi on an uki. Another aspect of the front punch is the penetration of the uki's defense.

With this in mind, one way to properly practice the application of the step through punch is to have the uki swing for the fences with a punch and have the tori step off line at 45 degrees, using the off hand to guide the punch by and the forehand to shoot around uki's hip. Then using an application from the very first form, Gi Cho Hyung Ill Boo, the tori performs the three quarter turn and throws uki with ogoshi.

Another thing to look at is weapon defenses. Many times we'll see the attack done in a static fashion, with little to no resistance, while the defender goes through a series of moves, not taking into consideration that the attacker, in real life, is not going to just stand there.

I think the same can be said of the weapons defenses. One needs to learn the proper context of the move and how to correctly practice it. A kata list of knife defenses is always a starting point and should never be practiced in and of itself. The principles of each technique are what matter.

My question is: Is there anything in your art that you feel could be or needs to be improved upon?

Big time. There are some Tang Soo Doin (Some Masters!) that have no idea what I'm talking about. All they've ever done is blindly practice kata and repeat the same federation one steps over and over again. There is little thought about what is actually going on beyond the functional movement. This attitude needs to change. The real deal is there in our art and I'm sure its right there in everyone elses too.

 

[MJS]

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan has a rising block as one of its basics. The block is designed to protect the head from attack.

It rises in front of the body, about one fist width away from the torso, and rises over the head. It snaps into position, covers the head entirely from side to side, still one fist width from the head, and is exucuted and completed at a 45 degree angle.

The block is supposed to meet the strike so as to deflect, not suffer the full impact from being static. The angle of the block is aso designed to allow the striking force to be deflected.

While this block is better than nothing against a head assault, I would still expect to receive serious injury to my arm (and probably still to my head). The fact that it is taught as a basic of the system (learned within a week or so of beginning) is where I have the issue.

I don't feel the technique takes into consideration the power of a strike from a baseball bat, stick, or pipe. I feel it is more important to understand the concept of distance, closing the gap on the opponent to both protect oneself and initiate an attack.

I'm not opposed to the technique as far as covering a vital area. I simply have opposition to it being taught as a staple of the system.

An upper or lower X block would fall into that same category. IMO, I feel that rather than use them solely to stop the attack, it should be more of a re-direct. That would prevent the person doing the block from taking the majority of impact.

Mike

 

[MJS]

MJS I believe all Arts need to be improved all the time to keep up with changes in life, with that being said we must never forget the past of said Art. Take TKD for instance it has become a water down sport for the majority, but for those of us that remember the old ways we are able to redifine the new in the Art without losing the past.
Terry

Thats true Terry and I agree with you. The sad thing is, is that many times we run into people that are so set in their ways, when they hear the word 'change' they look at you as if you have 2 heads.

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan has a rising block as one of its basics. The block is designed to protect the head from attack.

It rises in front of the body, about one fist width away from the torso, and rises over the head. It snaps into position, covers the head entirely from side to side, still one fist width from the head, and is exucuted and completed at a 45 degree angle.

The block is supposed to meet the strike so as to deflect, not suffer the full impact from being static. The angle of the block is aso designed to allow the striking force to be deflected.

While this block is better than nothing against a head assault, I would still expect to receive serious injury to my arm (and probably still to my head). The fact that it is taught as a basic of the system (learned within a week or so of beginning) is where I have the issue.

I don't feel the technique takes into consideration the power of a strike from a baseball bat, stick, or pipe. I feel it is more important to understand the concept of distance, closing the gap on the opponent to both protect oneself and initiate an attack.

I'm not opposed to the technique as far as covering a vital area. I simply have opposition to it being taught as a staple of the system.

That isn't a block. It's a strike and it's a throw. If someone throws a punch at me, I can slip to the inside or the outside and perform and nasty application.

Imagine that the uki punches with his right and I step at 45 to my right. I use my right hand to slip the punch and I use my left to slam a fist into uki's short ribs. Then I slip my left foot between uki's feet, right under his center of gravity while my left hand curls down and connects with uki's torso. Shifting my weight, I toss uki at an angle 90 from the direction I stepped. This angle is a defect position for uki and he ends up on his butt.

 

[Makalakumu]

An upper or lower X block would fall into that same category. IMO, I feel that rather than use them solely to stop the attack, it should be more of a re-direct. That would prevent the person doing the block from taking the majority of impact.

Mike

Depending on what form one is doing and what technque it follows, the "x-block" isn't a block at all. It's a joint lock. It's also a choke. The downward x block is a hanging jujutsu scarfhold and many more things.

 

[Navarre]

An upper or lower X block would fall into that same category. IMO, I feel that rather than use them solely to stop the attack, it should be more of a re-direct. That would prevent the person doing the block from taking the majority of impact.

It should redirect, you're right. It is too often seen as a separate technique, many times from a static stance as well. I would much rather cover the head and slip inside the attack swing, allowing me to both protect my head and initiate my own attack or attempt at weapon control.

 

[arnisador]

I think Modern Arnis, being developed relatively recently and intended as a modern art, doesn't have much that's archaic, though we do still talk about using and defending against a sword attack. But, these attacks still happen! So, I don't think we're retaining things that are no longer applicable.

But, could anything be improved upon in the art? Of course! The founder was evolving it until he died. We continue to put more emphasis in the organization I'm in on things like stick-sparring, pad drills, and other things to help the art come alive, for example, and we are trying to better codify the somewhat amorphous mass of techniques we inherited.

 

[MJS]

I think that the only reason it doesn't seem effective is because we were not taught properly. One thing that I've learned by training in a KMA is that certain misconceptions amplify once the art is passed third and forth hand from culture to culture. I'm sure the same could be said of any art that is two, three, or four steps from its origins.

I agree with this big time!! Having someone to teach you properly and make sure that you understand, is key!!! Many of my past Kenpo instructors were not doing this. Fortunately I've come across people who were able to clear things up.

Sure, nobody throws a jab like a step through punch, or a cross, or a hook. However, that isn't the point of the step through punch. The footwork of the step through punch is a front stance, which shows the tori how to move at 45 degree angles from the line of attack. With the hands, one is pulling and pushing and this can be many things from a grab and attack to a getting kazushi on an uki. Another aspect of the front punch is the penetration of the uki's defense.

With this in mind, one way to properly practice the application of the step through punch is to have the uki swing for the fences with a punch and have the tori step off line at 45 degrees, using the off hand to guide the punch by and the forehand to shoot around uki's hip. Then using an application from the very first form, Gi Cho Hyung Ill Boo, the tori performs the three quarter turn and throws uki with ogoshi.

The thing is, is that is whats not being explained. The person is left to believe that that is how people will punch. All the more reason to explore various ways that people will attack and make sure that you can apply your techniques off of a strike in which the person is not stepping forward.

I think the same can be said of the weapons defenses. One needs to learn the proper context of the move and how to correctly practice it. A kata list of knife defenses is always a starting point and should never be practiced in and of itself. The principles of each technique are what matter.

Thats true! We can't assume the person is going to stand there. We need to consider what they may do to counter our defense.

Big time. There are some Tang Soo Doin (Some Masters!) that have no idea what I'm talking about. All they've ever done is blindly practice kata and repeat the same federation one steps over and over again. There is little thought about what is actually going on beyond the functional movement. This attitude needs to change. The real deal is there in our art and I'm sure its right there in everyone elses too.

:xtrmshock Theres that evil word 'change' again!!!:lol:

Mike

 

[MJS]

Depending on what form one is doing and what technque it follows, the "x-block" isn't a block at all. It's a joint lock. It's also a choke. The downward x block is a hanging jujutsu scarfhold and many more things.

Thats correct. In Arins, there are knife defenses using the X block. However, a re-direct is done first with one hand, depending on which direction you're going to apply the lock, and then the other hand comes into play.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

Yes, what looks like an X-block in arnis isn't as symmetric a technique as it is in many other arts. One hand may be guiding while the other is checking, for example.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think part of the problem is that we need to distinguish the difference between the 'basic' way of doing a technique, and the 'realistic' way.

The basic way is how a newbie is first shown the technique, whether it is a simple reverse punch, or a combination of movements designed to defend against a specific attack. The basic movement needs to be learned by someone who has no experience, and no frame of reference. So it is taught in a manner that produces an unrealistic technique. But this is the first step, and it needs to start here so that the newbie can begin to understand the movement.

After the technique is taught in its basic form, then it should be studied to understand how it would be used realistically. Speed and fluidity of movement will be much greater in the realistic way of doing the technique.

The step from the basic to the realistic version could come very quickly, even in the first night of training, if the newbie is picking it up fairly well. The basic version can still be practiced as a way of focusing on, and perfecting the technique, but the application must be done realistically.

I think if this distinction is made, then much of what we might think of as 'out-dated' really is not. It is just being done in its basic phase where it should be done in its realistic phase.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a thread I posted a bunch of pics on a while back. This shows some alternative applications on willing ukis. I was a new chodan when I took these photos and my understanding has evolved since then, but it still presents a good general idea that although some things may appear ineffective and outdated, they can be taken in ways that are surprising.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20383

 

[The Kai]

Yes - The arts need to change and to grow. if not then we should say they are recreationists arts, like black powder shooting or civil war re enactments.
When we re creat the function of some of the kata they may or may not be effective. It may feel like the right thing to do, doesn't mean it is right. Would you by a box, and then try to find a gift based on the size of the box? A Ferrai is a great car, however, if I put a snowplow on the front end that does not mean it would be a good choice to clear away snow!

IMHO the problem lies in the idea of change itself, and McDojo's that would rather not train fighters but culitivate checkbooks

 

[shesulsa]

Drilling basics is what made the greats great and modifying/updating arts is what made the arts great.

What we think is outdated can always be modified or used - it's all in the application, angle, approach, etcetera.

 

[Makalakumu]

Drilling basics is what made the greats great and modifying/updating arts is what made the arts great.

What we think is outdated can always be modified or used - it's all in the application, angle, approach, etcetera.

I think generally, this is true, but the specifics are what counts.

IMO, a great direction for MT discussion would be to start talking about these techniques that people dislike for whatever reason. Perhaps we can all help each other understand things from a different POV.

I'd like to see alot more threads that were like "What the heck is this supposed to do?" or "I don't understand" or you name the technique and we'll discuss.

 

[shesulsa]

Excellent idea - wanna start them?

 

[Makalakumu]

Excellent idea - wanna start them?

Yup! See this thread as an example...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28503