Are They Scared???

[Nicholas82555]

I've been watching these wing chun clips on Youtube (WC versus WC and WC vs whomever) and I can't get over all the bouncing around and none commitment to throwing a solid punch or effectively trapping. How can u stand 10' away and not close if you want 2 effectively trap??? and the punches are tap-like without commitment. I'm talking about, the 1st one has just as much commitment and power behind it as the ones that you are about ready to eat. All I see half-hearted front kick followed by playing tag.

If we were to look at (ie Kyokushin Karate). They come in committed to eating you alive. WC should have the same commitment in their techniques. OR is this a case of us not putting our best foot followed in these clips))

 

[geezer]

Nicholas: It would be hugely helpful if you would post one or two of the youtube clips you are referring to, so folks can see exactly what you are talking about.

Other than that, we can only speak in generalities. For example, I can point out that Kyukushin and Wing Chun are so different in concept that it's really tough to use one as an example for anything you see done in the other. People tell me that Kyukushin is a medium to long range style and all about total commitment to a "one punch kill". Wing Chun is a short range system that avoids overcommitment to a single attack. It stresses efficiency economy of movement and using an opponent's power against him. I'd say that puts the two systems at pretty near the opposite end of the martial arts spectrum. Anyway, let's see those clips.

 

[WCman1976]

I agree with geezer; some clips would be useful. If you are talking about clips that just demonstrate WC, then it obviously isn't a reall fight but just an attempt for them to illustrate WC in "what if" scenarios. However, if you are talking about clips that feature a WC practitioner sparring against someone else...well, that is something completely different.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I've been watching these wing chun clips on Youtube (WC versus WC and WC vs whomever) and I can't get over all the bouncing around and none commitment to throwing a solid punch or effectively trapping. How can u stand 10' away and not close if you want 2 effectively trap??? and the punches are tap-like without commitment. I'm talking about, the 1st one has just as much commitment and power behind it as the ones that you are about ready to eat. All I see half-hearted front kick followed by playing tag.

If we were to look at (ie Kyokushin Karate). They come in committed to eating you alive. WC should have the same commitment in their techniques. OR is this a case of us not putting our best foot followed in these clips))

The irony is that this happens in most styles. In the UFC, you see a lot of bouncing around 'feeling' out an opponent. Its tactical, and it depends on the person you are fighting!! If you are facing someone bigger and heavier, the last thing you want to do is to stand and trade with the guy!!

I have fought in a couple of kyokushinkai karate tournaments and one of the reasons they commit is that it is bound by rules (no punches to the head, and only closed handed strikes). Therefore there is no 'fear' of being knocked out etc. It doesnt mean that WC is more deadlier etc, its just if you are going in knowing that your partner is allowed to take your head off, you are going to be cautious. Me personally, I love getting smashed around - it reminds you you're alive!!

But Geezer is right - you really need to post videos, as I know of a couple of good clips where chunners do commit. My fave funny clip is 'wing chun vs karate' where the chunner basically slaps his oppnent to submission haha

 

[Flying Crane]

without seeing the video examples, I'll add a thought or two...

When two people mutually agree to meet and "spar" or have a match, or fight, or whatever you want to call it, the very fact that both participants have willingly agreed to participate, creates certain dynamics and realities within the situation.

People who face off do so with the understanding that the other guy is (probably) as highly trained, possibly moreso. So there is a caution involved, a need to feel out the opponent, look for weaknesses in their abilities, etc. This means that there is a lot of feignting, jabbing, stuff without a lot of committment. This approach makes it very difficult to give full committment to an attack or a defense, because the opponent is prepared and expecting it, and is proceeding with appropriate caution designed to prevent himself from getting trapped and beaten. There is also an understanding that the two participants are both going to walk home after it's over. Nobody is going to the hospital or the morgue, unless a terrible accident happens that neither party intends. Certain limits are tacitly understood and respected. The nature of this engagement allows for filming, and this is likely what will be seen on places like youtube.

In short, the engagement is understood to be a competition between two likeminded and similarly trained individuals, and that means a lot of caution is used.

A real self defense situation is different. Only the attacker is there by choice, the defender is pulled into a situation that he didn't want and didn't expect, and the stakes are higher: he could be maimed or killed, not just beaten. This increases the engagement level for both parties. The attacker wants to get in and land his attack with authority and end it quickly to get what he wants (a mugging, or whatever). The defender wants to land his defenses decisively and also end it quickly so that he goes home safely. So both parties are more committed to their attacks and defenses, and I think you will not see uncommitted attacks, jabs, bouncing around. It's not a sparring match. If the two "face off" to fight, then it's no longer really self-defense. This kind of encounter is unlikely to be filmed, unless a third party witness does so spontaneously. This film could be used as evidence to prosecute a case against the aggressor.

What I'm getting at is that it's really the nature of the engagement that lends itself to what you are seeing. You are not seeing full engagement, because the dynamics of the situation dictated a different approach.

 

[MacPedro]

Merry Christmas Guys n' Gals,
I love this site. I think we all do. The comments here all have value to us as a community bonded in the pursuit of understanding. This is a Phenomenally great topic for discussion
Flying Crane......... you're like the Eye of Sauron with that answer. Perspicacity incarnate

I am, in no way trying to compare the arts of Wing Chun and fencing, I am just using it as an example because I can personally relate to it. Any confrontation contains an element of fear, unless the opponent is known completely. I remember occasions when there was a fair degree of toing and froing in competitions I took part in during high school. But by far the greatest test I think I learned from, was when I lunged unexpectedly, shortly after the 'allez', at the best of the gentlemen fencers the town of Dingwall produced. I remember his little round glasses and I think his name began with A. This guy was like lightning and at least 15 years my senior. I either caught him daydreaming or he let me do it. What a boost to my confidence it was all the same. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution.

I think I've seen some of the videos Nicholas is on about. It did surprise me to see how tentative they seemed. Matches against different arts mostly. Straight at em. "All in" they might call it in poker. That was what I had been led to believe.

I think I believe very well considering. Fundamental to my understanding of Wing Chun is the concept of belief.

Commitment and belief can be synonymous, can they not?

If you don't think a punch will land or effect, why throw it?

Wing Chun seems to tllt the odds a fair bit in our favour. It makes you feel amazing! I am not alone in this!

Pedro

Might I add that I have been drinking. LoL

 

[Domino]

Happy New Year Everyone !
I think I know the video your talking about. What I got from your post Nicholas was about commitment.
Sure we need to commit when the time is right to be devastating ...or your range would be wrong and the punch would never land.

 

[Nicholas82555]

This one I know was a pure joke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0cjMNVbfs&feature=related Taking the offense (alittle aggression would help)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ_u_o2loDo&feature=related ))))
Where's the form, discipline...U attack or try to defend from so far out how can u ever utilize ur trapping techniques. All I really c 4 the most is a none committed kick and off balanced chain punching.
Believe me I'm all 4 WC

 

[Domino]

The top one I have seen before, when the kick boxer kicks he should rush...but no, tries too hard to make a bridge work.
2nd video there are rules which is why he is only body punching.
3rd video he seems a bit 1 sided, prefers his right and seems to put himself in perfect kicking range.
Tim Weber video I liked but dislike those conference hall competitions

 

[geezer]

This one I know was a pure joke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH0cjMNVbfs&feature=related Taking the offense (alittle aggression would help)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ_u_o2loDo&feature=related ))))
Where's the form, discipline...U attack or try to defend from so far out how can u ever utilize ur trapping techniques. All I really c 4 the most is a none committed kick and off balanced chain punching.
Believe me I'm all 4 WC

First of all, you've got to recognize that none of these guys are pros. There are very few WC guys who are... there's just not enough opportunity for it. People with a taste and talent for competition will naturally gravitate towards MMA, Muay Thai, boxing and BJJ where they have a lot of opportunities to fight and get acknowledgement. It only makes sense.

Now, bearing this in mind, I thought the kid in the first bout showed good spirit. He didn't seem at all "scared" as you put it. In fact he was clearly the aggressor in the first two rounds. By the last round he was hanging back a bit... probably pretty gassed and maybe he had taken a few shots that were harder than what he was used to? He just needs a little more experience.

The guy in the second was totally outclassed and fighting in a rule-set that is impossible for WC. He had no business even being there.

Oddly for a 17 year old video, he third clip has been showing up on a lot of forums lately. Here's what I said about it on another forum:

Quote: Originally Posted by Lucas what went wrong is he stayed on the outside and let the guy pummel him with kicks at long and medium range, he should have closed the cap asap, and kept in close as much as he could to use his strengths against the kick boxers weakness. he started off strong and then for some reason he let the guy keep him at bay. Pretty much the way I see it. He did not use range well. By hanging back he took a lot of kicks and long range punches without being able to retaliate. When he did close, he wasn't able to press his advantage before the other guy would break away. I don't know what the rule set was, but if the guy's a runner, once you are inside you've either got to run 'em down or latch onto them. A couple of missed opportunities in this regard were at :37-38 when the kickboxer tried a spinning backfist and the WC guy got in close behind him. With an open rule-set, this would have been the moment to latch on and let him have it from behind. Similarly at about 1:19 the WC guy was in a good position to grab his opponent's head and let loose with some front knee strikes. It's almost like grabbing wasn't allowed. Finally, at 2:02 he caught his opponent's kick in a classic Lau-sau leg scoop. Forget the attempted fak-sau. He should have thrown that sucker's leg through the ceiling! And if that wasn't enough, sweep the supporting leg. Of course, it's darn tough to make use of every opportunity when your opponent is aggressive. You have to counter with equal or greater aggression and more opportunities will arise. Hanging back was not the answer. WC doesn't work on the outside.

The guy in the last video showed plenty of the "eat 'em alive" commitment you asked for in the OP and effectively dominated the bout. Yes. his techniques were a little sloppy, and sometimes his punching looked a bit rounder than text-book Wing Chun, but it was WC all the same. When you really mix it up, you are never going to see text-book perfect stuff, and some of the traps and tricks you play in chi-sau? Forgeddaboutit! My old Chinese sifu madethat clear to me way back in the '80's when he put together a very basic sparring video and book called Dynamic Wing Tsun. You might check it out.

 

[hunt1]

Yes of course they are scared. Most folks are. How to tell, look at their shoulders and watch the total lack of lower body use. Also nobody in the vids was using wing chun footwork. To get over being scared you have to get hit, a lot. You have to go out in the world and spar strangers. You can spend your whole life being the biggest and baddest in your school and the world will change the first time you face a trained fighter outside your school. Do not think that what you can do against drunks,punks and jerks means you have any skill against a trained fighter, you don't. If you can do something against trained fighters then you can do it against anyone. It doesn't work the other way. In all the videos posted one thing was clear . Minimal experience outside of their schools. Everyone has to start somewhere so hope they all keep at it.

 

[Nicholas82555]

Thanks 4 all the input. Nothing of worth ever gets pass me and I've taken new angles from all the responses. I apologize on the Kyokushin tournament in Japan. It completely got by me on the rules. WC is very limited when there's no punching 2 the face. With all said, "I believe WC is not designed 4 sport competition but experience and conditioning will serve all WC better. I located a school up in the mountains about 30 instead of 65 miles away in Ben Lomond California (Sifu Gerrit Bannon-Ving Tsun-Moy Yat). This will be a 1st time visit. I've also sat in on Sifu Ben Der from San Jose (Leung Sheung-Kenneth Cheung). Otherwise trying to shoot up to the the Bay Area on a regular basis would be murder)))
I've studied TKD, Shorin-Ryu but WC will serve me well because of my height and a disdain 4 trying to meet brute force with brute force.

 

[geezer]

@Nicholas: Good luck with your training!

 

[Flying Crane]

Thanks 4 all the input. Nothing of worth ever gets pass me and I've taken new angles from all the responses. I apologize on the Kyokushin tournament in Japan. It completely got by me on the rules. WC is very limited when there's no punching 2 the face. With all said, "I believe WC is not designed 4 sport competition but experience and conditioning will serve all WC better. I located a school up in the mountains about 30 instead of 65 miles away in Ben Lomond California (Sifu Gerrit Bannon-Ving Tsun-Moy Yat). This will be a 1st time visit. I've also sat in on Sifu Ben Der from San Jose (Leung Sheung-Kenneth Cheung). Otherwise trying to shoot up to the the Bay Area on a regular basis would be murder)))
I've studied TKD, Shorin-Ryu but WC will serve me well because of my height and a disdain 4 trying to meet brute force with brute force.

I don't know Ben Der, but I've heard good things about him.

 

[geezer]

I don't know BenDer, but I've heard good things about him.

Sorry, never could pass up a bad pun.

 

[onthechin]

Yeah the original poster is right. There are way too many WC guys who've never had a decent spar let alone a fight. For someone to claim they are fighting WC but then they are unable to trap tells the whole story. They have no footwork, they have no stance, they have no comfort in defence...in reality they have no real training in MA.

 

[WingChunIan]

looks like the party's over, but for my two cents worth. None of the clips of wing chun in sparring and full contact fights on you tube ever feature experienced practitioners and they always strike me as folks who have no experience of fighting / sparring with a non compliant opponent. Almost invariably the alledged Wing Chun practitioner stands too imobile and tries to wait for the other party to initiate the attack before responding. All too often the response is a flinch and a retreat as a result of the attack being unpredictable, harder than expected and the effects of adrenalin. The single biggest failure in most clips is lack of footwork and aggression.

 

[Cyriacus]

looks like the party's over, but for my two cents worth. None of the clips of wing chun in sparring and full contact fights on you tube ever feature experienced practitioners and they always strike me as folks who have no experience of fighting / sparring with a non compliant opponent. Almost invariably the alledged Wing Chun practitioner stands too imobile and tries to wait for the other party to initiate the attack before responding. All too often the response is a flinch and a retreat as a result of the attack being unpredictable, harder than expected and the effects of adrenalin. The single biggest failure in most clips is lack of footwork and aggression.

Optionally, they may be from an outlet that taught them something I consider to be one of the worst misuses of a System: Wing Chun to fight Wing Chun. As in, teaching the Student to fight their own System, as oppose to another person. This leads to serious problems.

 

[geezer]

Cyriacus... it's not just WC. A lot of traditional martial arts groups spar primarily against their own style. First, because that's who they have available, and secondly because they want to control the result. They don't want to look weak when facing of another style. Almost as problematic is having untrained people from their own group attempt to mimic what they presume the "other guy" will do, and have one of their own play the role of "the boxer", "the wrestler", or the guy "on the street". Usually, they make the opponent seem unrealistically inept. By giving students a false sense of confidence, they only set them up for failure.

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyriacus... it's not just WC. A lot of traditional martial arts groups spar primarily against their own style. First, because that's who they have available, and secondly because they want to control the result. They don't want to look weak when facing of another style. Almost as problematic is having untrained people from their own group attempt to mimic what they presume the "other guy" will do, and have one of their own play the role of "the boxer", "the wrestler", or the guy "on the street". Usually, they make the opponent seem unrealistically inept. By giving students a false sense of confidence, they only set them up for failure.

I didnt mean to imply it was just Wing Chun, sorry if it sounded like that
The line about Teaching a Student to Fight their own System was intended to clarify that, but in hindsight, it really doesnt.