Are these effective SD skills?

[RoninPimp]

Hatsumi demonstrating Ninjistu skills....

http://movie.motionmanage.com/movie/Community/Chiba/nodasi/nodasi_3.wmv

I ask this in this forum, rather than the Ninjitsu forum because the skills demonstrated look ineffective to me. Starting a thread there saying the top Ninja guy is demonstrating ineffective techniques would be inappropiate and probably against forum rules.

So my question is the thread title. Are the demonstrated skills effective for SD? And if you say yes, then how do you explain all the MMA footage AND the random fight footage of non trained people available online that doesn't look anything like the video of Hatsumi?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I would.

Because most MMA is sports related, and not self-defense oriented.

Random street fights are most often not between trained martial artists. Like chess, your game and the required skills needed to counter increase the better the opponent.

 

[monkey]

Hatsumi is powerfull & makes it wok to some exstent.There are other ninja lines that do clean teaching if you want to compair.The Hwarang do --Kook sul won--Hanmusul--SulSado are soild lines.Now these are Korean based so its differant-but, isnt differant a good thing to find.Yet most of what the Japanese display rolls-flips ect are done the same.Dont look at the name or origan of the arts look at the practicle deployment.

 

[Kreth]

Hatsumi is powerfull & makes it wok to some exstent.There are other ninja lines that do clean teaching if you want to compair.The Hwarang do --Kook sul won--Hanmusul--SulSado are soild lines.Now these are Korean based so its differant-but, isnt differant a good thing to find.Yet most of what the Japanese display rolls-flips ect are done the same.Dont look at the name or origan of the arts look at the practicle deployment.

There is no such thing as Korean ninjutsu.
As for the vids, as probably one of the few people on the forum who's had the opportunity to take a swat at the man, I would say that it's very effective. The video is misleading because Hatsumi sensei's movement is so fluid that he makes very skilled attackers look like fumbling idiots.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

It also seems he's playing to the crowd a bit. There seem to be some "little jokes" in there.

 

[RoninPimp]

I would.

Because most MMA is sports related, and not self-defense oriented.

Random street fights are most often not between trained martial artists. Like chess, your game and the required skills needed to counter increase the better the opponent.

-So what makes the demonstrated techniques effective for SD? When ninjas spar does it in any way resemble what Hatsumi demonstrates? If he (or anybody with those skills)tried those techniques against a non complying person(in a sparring session or at an ATM at 2AM) could he do them?

-Yes, MMA is a sport. What makes its techniques ineffective for SD? Since that's what you're immplying.

 

[RoninPimp]

There is no such thing as Korean ninjutsu.
As for the vids, as probably one of the few people on the forum who's had the opportunity to take a swat at the man, I would say that it's very effective. The video is misleading because Hatsumi sensei's movement is so fluid that he makes very skilled attackers look like fumbling idiots.

-He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-So what makes the demonstrated techniques effective for SD? When ninjas spar does it in any way resemble what Hatsumi demonstrates? If he (or anybody with those skills)tried those techniques against a non complying person(in a sparring session or at an ATM at 2AM) could he do them?

-Yes, MMA is a sport. What makes its techniques ineffective for SD? Since that's what you're immplying.

We went over the whole MMA as Self Defence crap before. You lost the debate.

 

[cfr]

Beyond the shadow of a doubt, they are 100% effective against a totally cooperative, non resisting opponent, as demonstrated in the video.

These questions always lead down the sport vs. self defense road. I personally think that if you have that nagging voice in the back of your head saying "this wouldn't really work", "I wouldnt really leave my arm out for this guy to do this", etc., then it's not something you should train in, or buy into. If you have that nagging voice then its best just to chalk it up to not being for you. It really doesnt matter what anyone else says, listen to your gut.

 

[Kreth]

-He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.

That's a common problem with video and one I've been critical of in the past. I'm not known for being an overly compliant uke and I got tossed around like a little kid by Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.

So? In a teaching, demonstration environment, should they constantly go full tilt on an old man? Having seen a video with him at a higher speed, it was hard to follow. Makes sence to slow it down do people can see. Of course, picking a highlight clip apart is really hard.

 

[RoninPimp]

We went over the whole MMA as Self Defence crap before. You lost the debate.

-Add to this thread's discussion or ****.

 

[Andrew Green]

Given that the man is... what... 75?

I'd say it's impressive.

How effective is it, well for MMA the stuff he was demoing I'd say not very. But as not every use of force is in a one on one fight, or even anything that can really be called a fight it's hard to say.

Some of it looked feasible, other stuff questionable. I'd like to see some younger guys going at it a little rougher to make any judgement, but I get the impression for a old guy he'd handle himself alright if someone tried to take his wallet.

 

[RoninPimp]

So? In a teaching, demonstration environment, should they constantly go full tilt on an old man? Having seen a video with him at a higher speed, it was hard to follow. Makes sence to slow it down do people can see. Of course, picking a highlight clip apart is really hard.

-I'm not saying at all they should go full tilt. I understand that demonstartions are just that. I'm saying the techniques look ineffective. For instance, at one point he's taking out two guys. He uses a standing twisty wrist lock. That doesn't work. An average healthy male can pull out of it. What makes Hatsumi's so effective? I'm arguing that it isn't.

 

[Phadrus00]

From what I could tell from the video many of the techniques were using effective joint manipulation and body mechanics and are similar to techniques I have seen in Aikido, jui-jitsu, silat and FMA. I think they could be very effecting in the hands of a skilled practicioner such as the one in the video. Hell I think I am going to watch it a few more times and steal a few things.. especially the nipple pinches and the ankle locks! *grin*

Rob

 

[cfr]

What makes Hatsumi's so effective?

Because he's a Grand Master! Duuhh!

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-Add to this thread's discussion or ****.

Witty. I'll remember that.

 

[Andrew Green]

He uses a standing twisty wrist lock. That doesn't work. An average healthy male can pull out of it.

Wrist twists work, just got to catch the guy by surprise, and apply it fairly quickly, I occasionally break out the wrist lock throws when I'm feeling like being annoying, can be done to healthy strong guys... once... and if you catch them by surprise.

In a less fight like scenario, someones being a pain and needs to be a little more compliant they can also work, again, used successfully in that sort of situation.

I prefer having a good "fighting" skillset to back that stuff up as nothing is 100% reliable, but that's just me

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-I'm not saying at all they should go full tilt. I understand that demonstartions are just that. I'm saying the techniques look ineffective. For instance, at one point he's taking out two guys. He uses a standing twisty wrist lock. That doesn't work. An average healthy male can pull out of it. What makes Hatsumi's so effective? I'm arguing that it isn't.

He's been doing this over 60 years. Think that makes him qualified to decide the effectiveness. Of course, since there was no audio, and my understanding is he doesn't teach in english, we miss much of what was being explained. Again though, we encounter the differences between UFC fantasy, and traditional arts. Notice the shots to the back of the head at one point.

 

[RoninPimp]

Wrist twists work, just got to catch the guy by surprise, and apply it fairly quickly, I occasionally break out the wrist lock throws when I'm feeling like being annoying, can be done to healthy strong guys... once... and if you catch them by surprise.

In a less fight like scenario, someones being a pain and needs to be a little more compliant they can also work, again, used successfully in that sort of situation.

I prefer having a good "fighting" skillset to back that stuff up as nothing is 100% reliable, but that's just me

-I would say twisting the wrist definately works as a component of a more involved technique. But a wrist hold as the only point of contact with the uke is very low percentage and won't work against a resisting opponent 99% of the time. And who doesn't love a quick wrist twist as a grip break.