Are there too many kicks in TSD?

[Makalakumu]

One of the things that I've always liked about TSD was the kicking. It is a good workout and it looks cool and some of them are very good for self defense. Some of them are also only for show.

As I've come to learn more about my art, though, I've found that there are a number of techniques that are equally important to self defense, equally fun to practice, and that also are very cool.

Training time is limited. If one wants to learn how to do a sweet jump spinning hook kick, one really needs to put time into it. Where does it come from? Often from taking time to practice breakfalls. Or maybe joint locking. Or maybe throwing.

With all of that being said, I often wonder if a level of practicality shouldn't be taken into question when it comes to TSD's kicks. Is it a good use of training time to develop something that is of little practical value while other stuff that is more practical gets put on the back burner?

IMO, if one makes self defense a training objective, then the answer is no? What kicks should be exited from the curriculum in favor of what techniques?

 

[bluemtn]

I know I'm not TSD practitioner, so I hope it's alright to add my 2cents. In my class, we only occasionally do the jump- spins, and with the plain spins- they're broken down to 2 kicks (like back leg side/ cresent). When we do in fact do them, they're done just after the warmup.

 

[FearlessFreep]

That probably depends on if the *only* thing you are training for is self-defense. If you train for personal conditiong, skill, sense of achievement, fun of competition, etc...aong wih self-defense then maybe those extra elements are good to have in their.

If you are only training for self-defense then you could probably eliminate a lot of kicks, plus a lot of other things like a bunch of hand-strikes (do you really need a knifehand, a ridgehand, a spear hand..I mean you could make a case where they all could be used, but also make a case where they are probably superflous)

 

[Makalakumu]

If you are only training for self-defense then you could probably eliminate a lot of kicks, plus a lot of other things like a bunch of hand-strikes (do you really need a knifehand, a ridgehand, a spear hand..I mean you could make a case where they all could be used, but also make a case where they are probably superflous)

Perhaps, you are correct. However, I wonder if there is a happy medium? I had a great conversation about this with my teacher on Monday night. He is thinking along the same lines as I am, but he also would like to maintain certain traditions.

 

[MA-Caver]

Perhaps, you are correct. However, I wonder if there is a happy medium? I had a great conversation about this with my teacher on Monday night. He is thinking along the same lines as I am, but he also would like to maintain certain traditions.

Well nobody said you can't cross-train to supplement your kicking/TSD training.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Training time is limited. If one wants to learn how to do a sweet jump spinning hook kick, one really needs to put time into it. Where does it come from? Often from taking time to practice breakfalls. Or maybe joint locking. Or maybe throwing.

With all of that being said, I often wonder if a level of practicality shouldn't be taken into question when it comes to TSD's kicks. Is it a good use of training time to develop something that is of little practical value while other stuff that is more practical gets put on the back burner?

That's a good question. At some point your art will turn into a MMA if it loses its uniqueness (TSD, it's kicks being ONE of its special characteristics). One possible solution is to keep the art "as is" and add (or change to) one class a week (or every other week), strictly devoted to self-defence.

 

[stoneheart]

Good thread...

Just for argument's sake, which kicks would you keep and which would you eliminate?

My two cents:

Keep: front snap kick (ball of foot), front thrust kick (heel), roundhouse kick with ball of foot, side snap kick, side thrust kick, spinning side kick, spinning hook kick, back kick, jumping front kick

Eliminate: crescent kicks, most jumping kicks

Hmm...I'm sure a purist will say every kick has its purpose. I've never thought crescent kicks had much practical application, but a classmate of mine pointed out that they help teach a student to use his waist and hips. That's definitely true, but I still question its effectiveness on the street...

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm a purist in the sense that I like to stick to our forms. Hwang Kee always said that the hyung are the backbone of TSD. They are what make TSD what it is. Therefore, I can see variations on some of the basic kicking working out in the art, but I also think that it can be taken too far.

 

[Zepp]

Technically, I'm a Tae Kwon Doist, but I've been accused of practicing Tang Soo Do, so here are my thoughts.

Spinning and jumping kicks are great exercises in balance, timing and coordination, but they are not directly beneficial to self-defense. (With the exception of the back kick, which has it's uses against multiple opponents.) So, it makes sense to me that spinning and jumping kicks should not be required material for students of the low to middle ranks.

But, students of lower rank should still be exposed to such kicks, so that they have the option of practicing them on their own time. Which means that instructors need to know them, and perform them well enough to get the technique acroos to others, even if they can't perform them flawlessly.

 

[trueaspirer]

I feel that many of the "fancy" kicks that exist in TSD should only be taught for enhancing ability. I do not think they are useful as kicks to be used when fighting, rather for excersizes to build up technique or stamina.

 

[Kaygee]

I am bringing this thread back from the dead.

There are a lot of things in a traditional martial art that aren't "practical" on the streets or in self defense. The sole purpose of a traditional martial art is not self defense, it is just part of it!

That being said, if I get attacked on the street, am I going to do a jumping hook kick or a short spinning kick? No! Will I kick to the head? Probably not!
All of my kicks would probably be no higher than waist high, as I would aim for the knees and groin. Any punch that I throw will be in the groin/solar plexis or throat area and any chop I perform will be for the neck area as well.

Ho Sin Sool will most likely have a big factor in the outcome as well. That is the part of the art that is solely for defending yourself, and my school practices this part often.

But just think that doing all of those kicks in class repeatedly, increases your flexibility and your reaction time. If you can throw a hard side kick to the face in a split second, just think about the power and quickness it will have when you kick someone in the solar plexis (which is where you would most likely land the kick in a real life situation).

It is also about "muscle memory"....your muscles get used to doing something so it becomes second nature. So not only do you react quickly, you do it without panic or adreneline taking over.

In the end though, I chose to practice a traditional martial art because it is something the lives and breathes inside of me! I always have a goal or challenge as I try to get my kicks perfect or my forms better. I enjoy spending time with other students and I am always learning life changing things from my masters. All of that self defense is way in the back of my mind.

However, I am strongly confident that I would be just fine if I was attacked in a real life situation with the training that I have received.

If I was just worried about street "practical" moves, I would have picked up MMA or something of that nature, where the only moves that are taught, are moves to defend yourself against an attacker.

That's jut my 2 cents!

 

[Tez3]

Refering to an earlier post here, there is no way any style is going to turn into MMA! Nor is MMA the optimum style for self defence, it's for competitive fights which are often likened to physical chess. The idea is to outwit your opponent using techniques within a ruleset. One attacks in MMA as well as defend, it makes for boring fights when you have two fighters defending. Of course the techniques used in MMA come from traditional styles which are used for self defence so it takes little imagination or even training to switch back and forth from competitive to defensive use. There are different styles which train solely for SD and if this is the aim you are better doing one of these.
As for kicks in TSD, there aren't that many tbh, more can be found in Wado Ryu however those that are there add to the arsenal you have even if you don't need to use them.

 

[Manny]

Nice topic and nice replies, I am enjoying so much this tread believe. I am a TKDoing so you must realize we have a few more kicks than you TSD guys and we have some fancy/flanboyand kicks that for me are a waste of time to practice. Yes, practicing tornado kicks zillion times will be benefical to improve your helath, yous stamina, your balance and the martial artist inside of you but I would rather expend my time performing, correcting and polishing a trust front kick to the solar plexus or a devastating round house to the rib cage or a spining back kick to the liver than trying to break a wood board at 2 meters high with a tornado kick.

I am a purist and love the practical martial art for self defense aplications.

I think high kicks like the ax kick and it's variants, the sipinh hook kick to the head for example or the tornado kick are fine to use in a tornament but in a real self defense scenario simply they are not practical.

In the class I teach I focuse on those basic kicks that do damage using full force, that's why I keep my students focused in performing the basic kicks as they shuld be, and yes once in a while we fooling around trying to perform jumping/spining hook kicks but if we end flat on the mat we only laugh and stand up and reasume the training.

I think that grandmasters of TKD and TSD who created the forms/poomsae/taeguks were not wrong because you can see at least in the Taeguk set of forms in TKD that the kicks used are the basic ones aimed to the center of mass.

Manny

 

[DennisBreene]

I remember having just this conversation with my sensei about the utility of tornado kicks. They were challanging and flambouyant but did not seem very useful in real life situations. His response was to agree in principle. He then reminded me that we often practiced techniques that were of limited tactical benefit. We practiced them to increase our speed, agility, and general capabilities. He then commented that in a real self defense situation, it was unlikely but possible that the tornado kick would be the exact technique I needed and all the practice could make the difference. It struck me because his personal self defense style was much more conservative and probably rooted in his old Kajikenbo beginnings.

 

[Tez3]

That's a good question. At some point your art will turn into a MMA if it loses its uniqueness (TSD, it's kicks being ONE of its special characteristics). One possible solution is to keep the art "as is" and add (or change to) one class a week (or every other week), strictly devoted to self-defence.

I don't think it will turn 'into MMA' without you training groundwork lol.

 

[Kaygee]

I am by no means any sort of master in TSD, nor do I have anything outside of 2 1/2 years of experience in it, but here is my 2 cents:
-Front Snap Kick= Keep.
Very Practical. Helpful no matter what the situation is.
-Roundhouse Kick= Maybe.
These can be powerful as hell, but they are dangerous because of how long they take to pull off.
-Side Kick= Keep! Keep! Keep!
One of my favorites kicks and one of the most powerful and very helpful at halting charging opponents.
-Back Kick= Keep.
Same thing as side kick....they can stop a charging opponent but take a bit longer to pull off. I like using back kicks as a counter after I do some sort of block. The spin usually confuses opponents and if I do not connect with the back kick, it opens something else up.
-Crescent Kick? I think this is what we call an inside-outside kick in my TSD. If so= Keep.
I'll tell you why. This kick is not practical in an actual stand up fight.....but imagine you kicked or punched someone square in the solar-plexus and they are bent over.......then you hit them with an inside-outside kick in the back. Conflict= Over!
-Outside-Inside Kick= Ditch
I never understood this kick. Good strecthing kick, but I don't think it would ever work.
-Hook Kick= Maybe
Generally, I do not throw many of these, but I did win a tournament a couple of weeks ago by throwing a roundhouse kick, and my opponent backed off....the thing is, I did not put my foot down and I came back accross with a hook kick as he came charging back in. **shrug**
Short Spinning Kick= Ditch
It would never work
Long Spinning Kick= Ditch
Again, it would never work.

All jumping Kicks for the kicks mentioned above= Ditch
Too much energy for a small chance of actual contact.

Those are the only kicks we are taught in my TSD, as it has been come to be known around here.

Now, as far as punches go, I strongly doubt I will ever use a punch the way that they show me in class. It will most likely be a jab, or a cross or a hook or an uppercut. I cannot see the situation where a reverse punch would work. Even in point sparring, I continously get yelled at because I "box" instead of throwing punches the way you are "supposed to" in Tang Soo Do. I just do not see how to do it and how to fit it in. Maybe it's just me......

Ridge hands and spear hands are fantastic! I defintely think they are pratical and would use them if needed. Imagine someone grabbing you and you have a clear shot to give them a knife hand to their throat. Or imagine being able to ridge hand someone in the corroded artery. They would work, just in the right situations.

My school does a lot of self defense! We usually sepnd 15-20 minutes per class on it, and in my TSD, there are four different self defense combinations per rank, so you learn a lot of them.

However, once in a while, we learn some pretty cool self defense techniques that are not "the normal criteria", but it comes to the same problem that the OP referred to......they are showed to us one night and one night only and only for a couple of minutes and then we never see the technique again. I wish there was more emphesis on these types of extra-curricular techniques!

 

[mcmoon]

I am by no means any sort of master in TSD, nor do I have anything outside of 2 1/2 years of experience in it, but here is my 2 cents:
-Front Snap Kick= Keep.
Very Practical. Helpful no matter what the situation is.
-Roundhouse Kick= Maybe.
These can be powerful as hell, but they are dangerous because of how long they take to pull off.
-Side Kick= Keep! Keep! Keep!
One of my favorites kicks and one of the most powerful and very helpful at halting charging opponents.
-Back Kick= Keep.
Same thing as side kick....they can stop a charging opponent but take a bit longer to pull off. I like using back kicks as a counter after I do some sort of block. The spin usually confuses opponents and if I do not connect with the back kick, it opens something else up.
-Crescent Kick? I think this is what we call an inside-outside kick in my TSD. If so= Keep.
I'll tell you why. This kick is not practical in an actual stand up fight.....but imagine you kicked or punched someone square in the solar-plexus and they are bent over.......then you hit them with an inside-outside kick in the back. Conflict= Over!
-Outside-Inside Kick= Ditch
I never understood this kick. Good strecthing kick, but I don't think it would ever work.
-Hook Kick= Maybe
Generally, I do not throw many of these, but I did win a tournament a couple of weeks ago by throwing a roundhouse kick, and my opponent backed off....the thing is, I did not put my foot down and I came back accross with a hook kick as he came charging back in. **shrug**
Short Spinning Kick= Ditch
It would never work
Long Spinning Kick= Ditch
Again, it would never work.

All jumping Kicks for the kicks mentioned above= Ditch
Too much energy for a small chance of actual contact.

Those are the only kicks we are taught in my TSD, as it has been come to be known around here.

Now, as far as punches go, I strongly doubt I will ever use a punch the way that they show me in class. It will most likely be a jab, or a cross or a hook or an uppercut. I cannot see the situation where a reverse punch would work. Even in point sparring, I continously get yelled at because I "box" instead of throwing punches the way you are "supposed to" in Tang Soo Do. I just do not see how to do it and how to fit it in. Maybe it's just me......

Ridge hands and spear hands are fantastic! I defintely think they are pratical and would use them if needed. Imagine someone grabbing you and you have a clear shot to give them a knife hand to their throat. Or imagine being able to ridge hand someone in the corroded artery. They would work, just in the right situations.

My school does a lot of self defense! We usually sepnd 15-20 minutes per class on it, and in my TSD, there are four different self defense combinations per rank, so you learn a lot of them.

However, once in a while, we learn some pretty cool self defense techniques that are not "the normal criteria", but it comes to the same problem that the OP referred to......they are showed to us one night and one night only and only for a couple of minutes and then we never see the technique again. I wish there was more emphesis on these types of extra-curricular techniques!

When I trained in MMA one of my instructors was BB in TKD and often used the crescent kick in sparring very effectively. If someone holds their hands in a tradional boxing guard he would used it to swat the hands away as he was coming in and finish up with punches.

 

[Kaygee]

When I trained in MMA one of my instructors was BB in TKD and often used the crescent kick in sparring very effectively. If someone holds their hands in a tradional boxing guard he would used it to swat the hands away as he was coming in and finish up with punches.

I can see where that would be helpful. The crescent kick is also a valuable tool when you are point sparring and your opponent does that ridiculous thing with their front foot as they keep it in the air and pump it over and over again while coming towards you. A nicely placed crescent kick to the calf or the thigh may stop them from doing it over, and over, and over, and over again.

As you can tell, I hate when people use this "strategy" when they spar. It's cheesy!

 

[Tez3]

I can see where that would be helpful. The crescent kick is also a valuable tool when you are point sparring and your opponent does that ridiculous thing with their front foot as they keep it in the air and pump it over and over again while coming towards you. A nicely placed crescent kick to the calf or the thigh may stop them from doing it over, and over, and over, and over again.

As you can tell, I hate when people use this "strategy" when they spar. It's cheesy!

That's quite a good/funny thing to do with styles that only kick with their front leg, they assume you will do the same but you actually kick them with the back leg instead.


What about axe kicks? I saw a fighter hit on the top of his head with one, dropped him in one

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am by no means any sort of master in TSD, nor do I have anything outside of 2 1/2 years of experience in it, but here is my 2 cents:
-Roundhouse Kick= Maybe.
These can be powerful as hell, but they are dangerous because of how long they take to pull off.

Then, bluntly, you're doing it wrong. Roundhouses are very quick kicks, when done properly. Look at my avatar. That's one of those "slow" roundhouses. After using an "impractical" hook kick to move his hands out of the way. Against someone 30 years younger than me. Nope, not an effective kick at ALL...

-Crescent Kick? I think this is what we call an inside-outside kick in my TSD. If so= Keep.
I'll tell you why. This kick is not practical in an actual stand up fight.....but imagine you kicked or punched someone square in the solar-plexus and they are bent over.......then you hit them with an inside-outside kick in the back. Conflict= Over!

If you did this, you wouldn't be using a crescent kick. You'd be using an AXE kick.

-Outside-Inside Kick= Ditch
I never understood this kick. Good strecthing kick, but I don't think it would ever work.

That says more about you than the effectiveness of the inside crescent kick. Here's one very easy example. Close to punching range. Get in a couple hard shots to the body to bring their guard down a bit. Now throw an outside to inside crescent kick to their head. It's fast. It's outside their line of site for most of the kick (if they don't see it, they don't block it...). And it's strong. The problem isn't with the kick, it's with your understanding.

-Hook Kick= Maybe
Generally, I do not throw many of these, but I did win a tournament a couple of weeks ago by throwing a roundhouse kick, and my opponent backed off....the thing is, I did not put my foot down and I came back accross with a hook kick as he came charging back in. **shrug**

Bill Wallace would strongly disagree with you...

Incidentially, how did you win this tournament a couple weeks ago? Weren't you just telling us that you'd left your TSD school for an MMA gym and just returned to TSD after the gym raised their prices? Did you compete in a TSD tourney while you were training at the MMA gym?

Short Spinning Kick= Ditch
It would never work
Long Spinning Kick= Ditch
Again, it would never work.

Again, the problem is not with the kicks, it's with your understanding. Perhaps you need to spend more time focusing on basics until you "get" it.

Now, as far as punches go, I strongly doubt I will ever use a punch the way that they show me in class. It will most likely be a jab, or a cross or a hook or an uppercut. I cannot see the situation where a reverse punch would work. Even in point sparring, I continously get yelled at because I "box" instead of throwing punches the way you are "supposed to" in Tang Soo Do. I just do not see how to do it and how to fit it in. Maybe it's just me......

I think you are probably right.

Ridge hands and spear hands are fantastic! I defintely think they are pratical and would use them if needed. Imagine someone grabbing you and you have a clear shot to give them a knife hand to their throat. Or imagine being able to ridge hand someone in the corroded artery. They would work, just in the right situations.

What's a corroded artery? One in need of a stent?
While you're telling us about your enthusiasm for this technique, tell us exactly what you think would be accomplished by it. I suspect, from this and your other postings, that this enthusiasm comes without actual experience in the techniques. That enthusiasm is good, but without an understanding of the basics (those same basics of which you're so dismissive above) you'll never be able to use advanced techniques effectively.