Are Their Any Throws in Systema?

Discussion in 'Russian Martial Arts' started by OldSkoolGeek, May 11, 2005.

  1. OldSkoolGeek

    OldSkoolGeek White Belt

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    Just occured to me, are there any throws in Systema?

    I mean, there's folding and collapsing and breaking someone's form and unbalancing someone and knocking 'em down and such, but are there any judoesque leverage type of throws?

    Thanx!

    - OSG
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    I've seen Systema video clips and videos of things that looked like sweeps and like a (very) modified fireman's carry, but not a body throw. But, I'm no expert!
     
  3. Arthur

    Arthur Blue Belt

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    If you understand the art, you'll find everything in there. Systema is "Prego" style (ie "Its in there")

    I recommend watching the films of Kyuzo Mifune to see Judo applied in a more "true" and pure context.

    If you closely study and observe Judo and Sambo throws, you'll see that they are derived from the same folding and collapsing.

    As one's skill goes up, one's "throws" generally get smaller and harder to identify/define. On the other hand most displacements and take downs are also a modified (or refined) version of basic body throws. An instructor whose aware of the biomechanics within his movemovements should be able to help you see how one movement relates to another.

    Arthur
    PS for the fun of it, I often dump students who enjoy big falls in what one normally views as Judo/Sambo throws. In real life of course one must be aware of turning ones back to the opponent and likewise getting overly involved and tied up with any individual.
     
  4. BoxANT

    BoxANT Guest

    hehe i like that.


    as for the question, Arthur summed it up very well.


    i would just like to add one more thing. this is an obvious statement for systema practioners, but sometimes is surprising for people who don't know much about systema. we really don't learn "techniques". that is to say, we don't come to class and learn a hip-throw or a rear naked choke. instead we try to understand our (and our partners) movement.

    it sounds funny, but makes sense as you get into it.
     
  5. Furtry

    Furtry Green Belt

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    Yes there are throws, but they occur out of the context of someone really trying to commit to getting thrown. In other words, I'm not going to go looking to do a weight bearing throw unless the opportunity literally presents it self and it is the easiest course of action... to let him fall on his head.
     
  6. NYCRonin

    NYCRonin Purple Belt

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    My friends above say it well, but let me try from another angle. It will all pretty much sound like repetition to one who knows already what we are saying - just another way of agreeing.

    In 'the work' - real time or practice - I do not 'go for' a hip throw nor a sweep nor a shoulder throw....but instead, things' like this' can happen, depending more on every unique relationship of bodies moving in time and space. Not to say this does not happen 'automatically' to practitioners of throwing arts, particularly seasoned ones - its does!

    Systema starts from a more free flow situational base, from the very start of ones education. Throws are more 'incidental' than deliberately sought. In a certain way, allowing them to just happen as a result of the 'moment shared' seems to permit an experienced Systemian to be 'free' to throw a body without the 'classically required' set ups that more technique oriented arts demonstrate at times.

    Can an experienced practitioner 'make' a certain throw happen, for a certain reason...sure. It is usuallly intentionally done for demonstration of a certain type of throw - you break a balance in a certain way then can demo a throw.
    But that is more a training tool - for only a 'free' Systema is a natural expression of the work. And naturalness is what we seek to attain, in movement and life as well.

    We often use Vlad as the yardstick, for many reasons - besides his unbeliveable skill. Any experienced Systemist seems to be reluctant to ever say or post: "war stories". Mostly these become personally shared things amongst real time friends.
    So we speak of our teacher and the things we witness..and I will mention such here...
    ALL of Vlads people with a m.art background can easily recall some instance where "The Man" was doing free work...and then suddenly moved in such a manner to make an attacker FLY acroos the room in a move like 'XYZ'. Afterward, you migh say: "Vlad, I did not know you knew how to do Hiza Garuma or Ippon Seionage...where did you learn that?" His answer? Usually something like: "Is that what that is called? In what art?"
    Basically, he never was taught either as a specific technique - he was just 'doing the work' and moving.
    You can always tell when he does something that came out of nowhere - because of the look on his face that conveys a sense of "Oyee! Look at that!"...he sometimes seems more surprised than the onlookers. Sorta (in Bklynese) - "Ow, how did that guy toss his butt that way? Why did he do that?

    This is not limited to Vlad, of course. Furtry here has done much like that to me, during a Toronto visit. Dumped me right on my back like a sack of wet cement...sorta modified ) O-Soto Gari. (HAD to modified, for if he tried the classical mode I was taught in my younger JJ days...I would not have gone anywhere and been able to (just maybe..MAYBE) deliver pressure to his leg for a take down myself. The point is - HE WAS NOT TRYING TO DO THIS! I hit the floor well enough...and at the last moment was able to lightly touch his foot as he was stepping forward in flow - and he went down also - more like a soft pillow than my cement sack...and I WAS NOT 'TRYING' TO DO THAT, either! Just caught his advancing foot just right, and I dont 'know' why I did it - it was natural and TOTALLY 'unforced' on my part.

    Just an example, one Furtry probably does not even rememeber, for it was almost 3 years ago. I remember though, Dima, moy druk.

    I know to someone from certain other arts that this sounds strange or impossible...maybe trite, to you.

    Maybe not, depends upon the reader. Take it for whatever little it might be worth.
     
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  7. Franc0

    Franc0 Purple Belt

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    When they present themselves, yes.
     
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  8. Jackal

    Jackal Orange Belt

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    The first time I ever worked with Vladimir, he had me try to choke him from the rear. He even let me get a firm lock on his neck. A subtle twitch of his hip and shoulders sent me flying several feet in front of him. If that wasn't a throw, I don't know what one is. I can't say it was anything like I'd learned in jujutsu, but it worked REALLY well.
     
  9. RachelK

    RachelK Purple Belt

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    I suppose that's why Systema students often laugh as we witness the human body moving in such remarkable ways. At times, I wonder who is more surprised, the person who has been taken down, the one who assisted him towards his descent, or the innocent bystanders!
    I've been given some advice about takedowns from a senior student. He told me to follow up and end up near the torso, rather than the legs, of my training partner after the takedown. If it is necessary to incapicitate an opponent, it will be a little easier for me to do so if I am in the vicinity of the head or torso. I think a Judo-type throw wouldn't mesh well with this advice because I'd be too far away and the opponent might draw a weapon or simply rise again and continue the attack.
    Just my $0.02, hope it helps.
    *Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
    Rachel
     
  10. leomel pino

    leomel pino Yellow Belt

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    hey lads, nice to see you here!
     
  11. NYCRonin

    NYCRonin Purple Belt

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    Weve been waiting! Lotsa threads to get into here also. Make yourself at home.
    This forum does not have the daily traffic as some. Still, it is a comfortable place to sit and discuss.
     
  12. silatman

    silatman Blue Belt

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    Is there a syllabus for systema then?
     
  13. Jackal

    Jackal Orange Belt

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    Syllabus?
     
  14. NYCRonin

    NYCRonin Purple Belt

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    LOL!
    'Silly-us'! No, 'sylla-bus'.
    In my previous 4 decades of things martial - I was so challenged and pleased to find the lack of a collection of hard 'rules' as is in Systema.

    The olders know well the Systema axiom = 'No forms, no kata, no belts, no rules'.
    Its kinda hard to even envision how 'the work' becomes natural -- because we are often in the west, taught a form of 'logical progression' in learning a thing.

    By example: learn the alphabet, then small words - phonetically sound them out and learn the rules like I before E except after C..when sounded like A as in 'neighbor' or 'Way'....I know it sounds so odd. But thats 'how' english is spelled and read as it does its work.

    I spent decades in the classical progression - and need not recount any (now) useless form of recounting 'classical' qualifications to add any veracity to what I am writting. I did my forms - in the classical karate - and TKD - and could actually (at one time in life - seems so long ago now) Do a 'kata' and show you the progression from the Okinawan to the Japanese to the Korean extraction of the same form....but only now do ocassionally a very few for exercise.

    As humans, we seek pattern and replication - BUT - even in the very classical japanese and Okinawan schools....they sought to eventually find a form of freedom from the very patterns they taught freedom by. Seems a very 'oriental concept' to me now.
    In Systema - you are never robbed of (what zen/B.Lee) state is ones 'original freedom' -- in The System as taught by Vasilieve - your inherant reactions are not really 'drilled' or trained too much -- I like to say they simply become relaxed and stretched abit.
    And therein lay the uniqueness.

    My dear and long missed friend 'Jackal' above - he and I are of a long classical m.art background - and he and I are different of body size and background - and by example - we will take the straight right punch to the face as an attack to discuss...an attack thats common - and also one I used in a smeinar about 2 years ago that Jackal attended - for he offered to attend to help the students to 'understand' The System with both his and my personal understanding and flavor.

    'Punch comes' (a term we often hear when we are learning from our teachers - as they work from freedom - they (as we) do not say "Throw a straight right'' - just a punch comes (and thats probably the most restrictive request any Systema teacher/guide ever uses for demo purposes - usually its more like "attack any way you want"). When Jackal did the st. right defence - he just stood there and did NOT move at all! Because the attacker was throwing the 'respectfully short punch' that wouldnt have hurt Jackal even IF it hit. "NO! HIT ME..OK?" And when the student repeated - he threw a deep one (probably because his ego was reacting) and ALL Jackal did was 'wave' his body to the outside of the attackers more committed punch - as he simply, softly held up his right fist in a (mercifully, perfectly placed) R. handed 'U punch' that the guy impaled himself on. Down he went - no damage - but 'well folded in both pain and reactionary fear'.

    It was 'kracevia robote' - BEAUTIFUL WORK! THE ATTACKER? Undamaged... but downed convincingly.
    (Jesse - I never forgot that - well worthy of recording as an expression of free movement -YOu may have forgotten - but I never will, moy druk).

    Same seminar - a minute later or so:
    I picked out a stocky student (one who is a member of this site - he was previously trained in RBC and also a lil of a more local method AP) - THIS guy was also to do a straight right for demo purposes - and instead threw a looping long right overhand BOMB! - HARD and FAST at my delicate cranium. Since I asked for a demo opportunity - well, I asked for a 'this' and got a 'that' - I will admit I was still (then) less free than now in movement - BUT - all the atacker got was a chance to graze my face - because my body 'did' (by itself - in feeling the 'short circuit of the unexpected') - a deflection that turned out to become a right knee to his abdomen - and as he bounced upright off it - into a r. neck hit from the deflecting arm...and he just collapsed to the floor -- more out of confusion than pain - I did not want to hurt a paying attendee. But - 'it' all just happened by itself - BOTH for myself and Jackal.

    HARD drilled repetitive movements in a response to ANY attack - is simply NOT what we do in this art.

    And I could discuss in length why it 'works' so well in too much length - it would take chapters to do so...and Mr. Hubbard should not have to pay for my drivel chewing up this sites bandwidth.

    Its hard to express in words - hard to really get the 'juice' from, in watching clips or even my dear teacher Vlads DVDs.....its like driving a car...we can discuss, recount or advise - and even go to a vid driving game simulation - BUT ONLY the real feeling of driving - facing a myriad of real world (even life and death circumstances) can make you a good or even excellent driver.

    All of 'this' is a very intimate and individual experience. Much like breathing -- or oddly enough - conversation - and more so oddly - making love.

    I can 'describe' to you the taste of pizza - NO, not at all. I can mention my concepts - and only you can 'taste it for yourself'...and with loving respects to my Bro. Brian K. (LOL) - I still will always prefer the pizza that the iconic pizza place in Bklyn (Spumoni Gardens - 86th St and Stillwell Ave.) - but as another dear Systeman Bro says - YOUR INDIVIDUAL RESULTS MAY VARY!

    I 'MOD' here - its both a joy and a priviledge (and an accepted responsability)- and TRY to do my best to interject when I feel I can add to the discussion - BUT - I am often too wordy...look above to my Bro. Jackals one word reply - and its all there.

    THIS m.art - is often hard to understand by words or any form of viewing - only you can taste the pizza of Spumoni Gardens - and decide if its for you, or not.

    THIS art simply is not for 'everybody' - we all see the color gold abit differently.

    Namaste!
     
  15. silatman

    silatman Blue Belt

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    Nice post.

    I love my art but can see the limitations of it in terms not of content or practicallity but in "hard training". What we do is very efficient and practical an our classes are very open in that we take a technique, run throught it a couple of times each, then we take it appart and find the principal behind it, then we play.
    Everyone in the class gets to let there creative juices flow and see what works for them. When someone finds something they really like they demonstrate and it gets tried and tested by all. Normally this then leads to something else and so by the end of the night you could have any number of options from all sorts of positions.
    We do spar and groundfight occasionally but not full-on or not enough for my liking. If I could find an art that will give me the fight conditioning that I believe should be essential if you seriously want to stand a chance in the event for some reason you are called upon to fight for your life or your families. Whislt I wouldn't leave my art to do it, doing the odd casual class of something like systema sounds interesting to say the least.
     
  16. Jerry

    Jerry Blue Belt

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    I've not seen throws like the ones in Judo. The throws you are discussing are generally done while grabbing, and often with a stifness... neither common in Systema.

    Both true and false.

    For example, you learn how to recieve a hit by standing and hitting. You learn to move that energy around and release it in the "exchanging hits" practice. You learn to throw a punch, you learn to wave, you learn to hit with your body, etc.

    Whether yuor particular classes are structured into "punching, falling, etc", or it's done more ad hoc at your school doesn't change the fact that there is specific material... that's why you can tell a systema person from a JKD person when they are playing.

    True, though it would be false to assume that it's unheard of for the grappling arts to do the same.

    You do see some deleberate takedowns (where the takedown is an aggressive act) in some grappling arts... but it's a mistake in any art to plan a technique too far in.

    You realize that you've just outlined a syllibus?
     
  17. NYCRonin

    NYCRonin Purple Belt

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    Hmm, maybe I have!
    Still - its very different than the way that I was originally taught how to read and speel over 40 years ago - maybe we do have a 'silly-bus'that takes us where to go...but the bus is not learning by rote nor conditioned responses that are inviolate - more like phonetics where the sound and ponunciation gives the correct spelling.

    The Systema bus we ride on - is very different than the more stiffly dictated responses to an attack --- as I was taught in previous arts.

    BUT - Ido consider your point - and regret I am unable to fully express the difference between the classical and the free form of The Sytem...I do better by movement than by words.
     
  18. Jerry

    Jerry Blue Belt

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    I can understand and occastionalyl share that frustration. There's more of a focus on methods and tools than techniques, but the differences don't always come across to those who have only had one style of insturction or another.

    and yes, I consider the style of training you'll see in (among others) Systema, to be more realistic and useful than what one generally gets from a "action, counter, counter-counter"... though I've seen that work well too.
     
  19. Jackal

    Jackal Orange Belt

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    Ok, the next time I'm in Brooklyn, Spumoni Gardens it is. I do miss the Salmon teriyaki though...and, of course, the accompanying conversations.

    My favorite comparative description of Systema training has always been that of a tile mosaic: Acquiring and applying one piece at a time - eventually stepping back to admire the beauty of the whole. Granted, the new DVDs are wonderful in their almost step-by-step approach, but for those who did not originally have such resources available, the “Ooooo I got a new piece today!” method was definitely the way to go.

    Having a Syllabus really would get in the way of exploration and creativity. If your instructor told you to only step to the left, how would you know what it feels like to step to the right? Right might not be the best way to go, but you don't really know that until you get there. The true answers are in the moment, not just in someone else's experiences.


    *Yawn* At this moment, the answer is to turn the computer off and get some sleep.
     
  20. Jerry

    Jerry Blue Belt

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    Much as I felt when my instructor told me to sink out hit after hit rather than move. Because I did that, I can now do both.


    Did your instructor tell you to relax? Doesn't that make you wish that he didn't and you could just stay really tense? Doesn't it feel like you aren't allowed to step to teh proverbial right?123
     

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