Are Their Any Throws in Systema?

[mscroggins]

Did your instructor tell you to relax? Doesn't that make you wish that he didn't and you could just stay really tense? Doesn't it feel like you aren't allowed to step to teh proverbial right?

No, because I am not 6. And besides, the advice to stay relaxed is just that, advice. If you wish to stay tense, you can, but at your own peril. Its more of a safety warning, in my experience.

If you want to stay tense, knock yourself out.

 

[Jerry]

No, because I am not 6. And besides, the advice to stay relaxed is just that, advice. If you wish to stay tense, you can, but at your own peril. Its more of a safety warning, in my experience

"Advice" as opposed to what other option?

Jackal's position was that "you should step left if this happens" was a "syllibus" and that Systema did not have a syllibus.

What's the difference between "you should step left if this happens" and "you should be untense if you get hit"? Can you tell me how one is a "syllibus" and the other is "advice"? Do I really need to get more detailed in how Vlad teaches chest-shoulder-elbow-fist for hitting and how that constitutes a "technique"? I'm not really interested in such an argument of semantics.

 

[mscroggins]

You bore me Jerry. You complain about quibbling over semantics, then dive into semantics at every opportunity.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Furtry]

Yap, here I think mscrogins has hit the nail on the head ... Jerry just wants to be rite, or is that on the right... never mind .

 

[Jackal]

Did your instructor tell you to relax? Doesn't that make you wish that he didn't and you could just stay really tense? Doesn't it feel like you aren't allowed to step to teh proverbial right?

If I just listened and obeyed rather than tried both and felt the difference, I wouldn't have been able to appreciate the advice and the findings wouldn't have been "mine".

Jackal's position was that "you should step left if this happens" was a "syllibus" and that Systema did not have a syllibus.

What's the difference between "you should step left if this happens" and "you should be untense if you get hit"? Can you tell me how one is a "syllibus" and the other is "advice"?

General principle vs. specific response to hypothetical movement. There's no reason for any arguments involving semantics. I do believe, however, that defining terms is always a good place to start. Back to my original response to silatman's question; I wanted to know what his definition of syllabus was in order to properly answer the question.

Oh, and sometime's it's good to have tension when hit.

 

[Jerry]

If I just listened and obeyed rather than tried both and felt the difference, I wouldn't have been able to appreciate the advice and the findings wouldn't have been "mine".

So you argument is that you should experiment around with alternatives to see *why* something in the syllibus is there? I agree.

General principle vs. specific response to hypothetical movement. There's no reason for any arguments involving semantics. I do believe, however, that defining terms is always a good place to start. Back to my original response to silatman's question; I wanted to know what his definition of syllabus was in order to properly answer the question.

Unfortunately I agree that the difference here may be one of symantics. In the end we cannot determine whether a syllibus exists without clearly knowing what one is.... ahh the fun of equivocation

Oh, and sometime's it's good to have tension when hit.

Fair enough... though I'm reasonably sure you understand what I was getting at

---------------------
mscroggins, furtry: Wow, your two posts added so much to the conversation. I can see why you are in a position to make an off-topic criticism of another poster, and how such a thing isn'[t entirely off topic, nor itself "boring". Were I you, I would simply not read posts I found boaring... but being odd, I don't go to a discussion board and wonder why there's more than one opinion... guess I'm just odd.

 

[Furtry]

yap.

 

[Furtry]

Syllabus (plural syllabi) is a document with an outline and summary of topics to be covered in a course. It is often prepared by the professor who teaches the course and is usually given to each student during the first class session. Syllabus usually contains specific information about the course, like information on how, where and when to contact the lecturer and teaching assistants; an outline of what will be covered in the course; a schedule of test dates and the due dates for assignments; the grading policy for the course; specific classroom rules; etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabus

 

[SonnyPuzikas]

Jerry- since your expertise in Systema work and training methodologies is so deep and your "semantics" are so elaborate- why don't you just get to the core of what you want to say?
And you have not contributed much of substance to the conversation... IMO

 

[Jerry]

Syllabus (plural syllabi) is a document with an outline and summary of topics to be covered in a course. It is often prepared by the professor who teaches the course and is usually given to each student during the first class session. Syllabus usually contains specific information about the course, like information on how, where and when to contact the lecturer and teaching assistants; an outline of what will be covered in the course; a schedule of test dates and the due dates for assignments; the grading policy for the course; specific classroom rules; etc

If this is the definition you wish to use than I have never seen a martial arts school which had a syllabus. Rarely is there a document with a summary (though I've seen instructors who teach from outlines), and if a document exists with the course material, it's not usually handed out with "when and when to contact the instuctor and teaching assistants), nor is there generally a sehecule of test dates nor due dates for assignments attached to an art (in fact, I've never seen a schedule of assignments at a martial arts school).

I'm curious: Are you aware of any martial arts schools which have a Syllabus?

 

[erich]

yes

 

[Kenpodoc]

If this is the definition you wish to use than I have never seen a martial arts school which had a syllabus. Rarely is there a document with a summary (though I've seen instructors who teach from outlines), and if a document exists with the course material, it's not usually handed out with "when and when to contact the instuctor and teaching assistants), nor is there generally a sehecule of test dates nor due dates for assignments attached to an art (in fact, I've never seen a schedule of assignments at a martial arts school).

I'm curious: Are you aware of any martial arts schools which have a Syllabus?

Yes.

Commercial EPAK schools generally have some variation of a syllabus they teach from. Doc's Martial Arts University has a strongly academically oriented program which would fill your narrowly defined definition of syllabus.

Jeff

 

[NYCRonin]

Jerry...odd question..classical m.arts are most often taught very much in a progressional.
Basic kata/form 1..then 2 then 3.

Takes awhile and lotsa pretty belts before responses become deeply ingrained into ones nervous system - and then - at a b.belt level - they try to recapture freedom - a freedom flavored by the 'style' studied.

Systema avoids that trap of the rigid leads to freedom.

Even Concepts JKD - is taught by a deep progressional method. Dan Inosanto - a former schoolteacher - came up with numerous 'training outlines' that his students authorized to teach under him, follow religiously.
I have seen them - back in the early/mid 90's - At The NYC Martial arts Academy - as a student of JKD/MT/Grappling/Savate/trapping/Escrima.

The teacher was a good man and very knowledgeable...and because I alreadyhad an extensive backgound...I would sometimes sit in his office as we spoke. soemtimes, he would pull out the HUGE bound volumes of progressional class outlines - as he decided what to work on that night.
I chided him about that many times: "The art of original freedom (JKD), is confined by a class outline? How free is that"?

Neils answer was usually - "Ya gotta learn the rules before ya can break em".

In Systema - the rule is no rules.

Hence - there is no syllabus nor written guideline nor class progressional thing that any Systema teacher follows as a rule. When I taught, I - like many Systema guides - didnt have a set idea of what the session would consist of. I had an idea -- a BROAD ONE - but once I saw who was on the grass that particular day - I may have just done something entirely different as the 'theme' of the day. One session might be mostly civilains and/or recreational martial artists that were soo stiff - so the day was about relaxation. Next session - might have been a mix of more relaxed seniors and LEO guys - and once again, the origianl idea for that session went right out the window. The guides of this art MUST be as flexible as the students that show up at a session - more so.

Jerry..over the 41 years in the arts I have had - I did the classical method. And although 'you' may not have seen the rules and regs of an art - its probably because your not a teacher of any particular art that is deeply conventional/classical....basic form 1 the 2 and 3 and then the pinan 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5. Its very organized...yet Sytema is not. Not ofr the students...NOT for the guides - and MOST certainly not for Vlad.

A couple of years ago, I was in Toronto (where VV has his home and school)...I was staying in a local hotel...and Vlad graciously offered to pick me up and take me to his school. Of course, I jumped at the chance. On the way there - I asked Vlad what he was going to teach that day. His answer was: "Rob, I have an idea of today...but I have to see whose there at the school. I will see who comes...then do whatever I feel is what they need to work on...today. Maybe we will work punches - or breathing - or movement -
I dont know until I see. It depends on the many things. Rob - when you teach, always remember you are helping the student...do not ever try to force your ideas before you walk into the class. That is like thinking how to defend an attack - before you even are attacked...we do not do this thing. Do we"?

"No Vlad - we do not".

"Then Rob - become free of thinking about what to teach - there is so much to teach...dont make the decision about what you will show until you are in the place with the students".

VERY DIFFERENT THAN ANY CLASSICAL/CONVENTIONAL MINDSET - from a teacher of m.arts point of view - at least the 3 arts I taught prior to Systema.

I dont teach at this present time - but I will not forget that conversation.

We dont have a syllabus - we have a silly-bus...and we get where we wish to go, very comfortably, thank you.

No one wears your individual skin..no one.
And Sytema is not a GI, nor a t-shirt, nor to-bawk. All uniforms are stripped off when you shower. Systema is 'you'!
Who/what/wherever you may be.

It never is a shirt - even from the start - it becomes your skin...then your muscles...then your bones....then your mind/spirit....and it becomes you as you become 'it'.

Simple as breathing. Is there a syllabus for breath? OH sure, you can enforce one - make one up - but you breath as you wear your skin. All Systema does is become you in so many ways that you/systema simply are one.

AND THAT will never be easy or accurate to explain in words, totally. YOU have to DO 'the work' -- no vid nor words nor posts can even give a bit that only one 2 hour session under a guide can provide.

I cant tell you its taste - how much of a bite can you take from a big juicy apple....for maybe your only ready for applesauce....its sweet but not the Big Apple.

And I am out for now!

 

[Jerry]

Commercial EPAK schools generally have some variation of a syllabus they teach from. Doc's Martial Arts University has a strongly academically oriented program which would fill your narrowly defined definition of syllabus.

I'm surprised to hear of one which was not a college course which was so structured as to have testing dates, assignments, and contact information handed out.

BTW, it's not my definition, Furtry set it (post 28)

Jerry...odd question..classical m.arts are most often taught very much in a progressional.
Basic kata/form 1..then 2 then 3.

Some are, some are not. I don't believe Akijitsu or any of it's decentandants (Judo, Jujitsu, Akido, BJJ) are generally taught in forms, nor are most of the Silat arts I've seen, nor my limited experience with Thai Boxing arts

In Systema - the rule is no rules.

The problem I've had with this statement is that it fails to account for the fact that two systema practitioners have fundamentally the same material. "No rules" equates to "no material". Pushing the energy of a strike out of your body is a rule, as is relaxation, as is dropping weight, as is breathing out, as are any number of other "systema responses".

Don't get me wrong, I think Systema is a great art and I'm extremely fond of the training methodologies. I also agree that Systema is in the "less rigid" group (as opposed to the very "be in this stance, step back with this leg, move this hand from here to there" arts). To a great extent we agree in principle; I think my issue here is over rhetorical catchisms and the tendancy of people to believe them.

Jerry..over the 41 years in the arts I have had - I did the classical method. And although 'you' may not have seen the rules and regs of an art - its probably because your not a teacher of any particular art that is deeply conventional/classical....basic form 1 the 2 and 3 and then the pinan 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5. Its very organized...yet Sytema is not. Not ofr the students...NOT for the guides - and MOST certainly not for Vlad.

I don't believe that I've made such a claim, and I'm not a fan of people attempting to appeal to their own authority. I've seen everything from the very structured to the very loose. I've argued in this thread that Systema did have a sylibus, then agreed that whether this was true depended on how one defined it, then argued that the offered definition (by Frurty) was not useful as the arts he was comparing systema to did not have one under that definition.

Simple as breathing. Is there a syllabus for breath? OH sure, you can enforce one - make one up - but you breath as you wear your skin. All Systema does is become you in so many ways that you/systema simply are one.

An interesting comparison since how to breathe is part of the Systema cirrriculum. Everyone is taught the same breathing techniques. Everyone tries to use the same breathing techniques.

 

[milosmalic]

Q: Are there any throws in Systema?

A: Yes there are, or sometimes planet earth is approaching me from "the above".