Are modern ninjutsu schools frauds?

[JR 137]

The same way you can claim meth is bad without being a crack head.

For the record, meth users are tweakers; crack users are crackheads.

 

[Grimlon332]

Pretty much what Tony says

The Bujinkan includes several arts that are relatively straightforward, well documented old styles of martial art
It also includes several styles that come from the Iga region which is famous for ninja
Until recently the transmission of these Iga styles was purely oral and thus unverifiable. Hence there’s a fair bit of conjecture and noise on the web about this

However, there has recently been some research into the stories and family ties around the Ira connection and there is now evidence that a) there is a direct family connection from the lord of a castle in Iga to the Bujinkan, b) the family were senior respected martial artists, c) they held positions in government traditionally associated with ninja, and d) they may have been tasked with some unusual jobs in times of trouble

Thanks for the awnswer. It was one of my interrogations. I saw that there were many schools taught by the bujinkan, and some were subject of a lot of deabtes, like Togakure-Ryu for example. The only thing that I have to do now to have a confirmation, is to go to a Bujinkan dojo (there is one near my home) and see it by myself I think.

 

[pdg]

Where as for me. I am just going to trust all those medical professionals. Even though they have never tried it for themselves.

Over those guys who have used it and tell me is totally cool.

There's a difference though - as a chemical reaction there are verifiable and defined physiological responses to drugs of all sorts.

Even then, any side effects vary depending upon the individual in question, hence why the information leaflets supplied with medicinal drugs tend to detail 'possible side effects', as opposed to 'guaranteed side effects'.

So saying "drugs are bad mmmkay" is somewhat analogous to saying "a kick in the happy sack will always work".


In other words, some things work for some people that don't work for others and vice versa.

 

[Martial D]

What if we could market a product that not only doesn't exist, but never existed?

Maybe taking a Japanese first name and a Korean last name could help...

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Sorry but how can you claim what's useless and what's not when you don't train anything? Unless you've now started training

I dont see how thats relevant the the rest of my point, i focused namely on the "ninja" skills, to which no other thing in the "martial arts school" category can be used as a analog. The only analog i can see is the security and defence industry both public and private and they are focused on the contemporary world not the past. So again, my point wasnt if they teach you to straight punch right its useless, its there are better places to learn all of it, outside of Ninjitsu and of the portion of legitimate schools a element might be focused on historical accuracy which means they are re enactors basically. I wouldn't tell someone to join a WW2 re enactment to learn martial skill. I would how ever tell someone who is interested in that country/unit in the war and how they fought and lived to join a WW2 re enactment group.

How ever the very last part of my post is this: "But as a disclaimer i haven't done it, some things may be applicable from it and there might be a few (and i mean that to be a very low number) good schools out there which might more or less do the non combative elements from ninjitsu but as a generalization, the above applies. Always keep a open mind and follow evidence if you do dealings with them though and always question the purpose for something and if its meant for combat want it pressure tested as best as possible. I would say do that for any martial art you undertake or any teacher you are learning a skill from."

So if he wants to do it what ever, just keep a open mind and try and pressure test the skills you are taught. In this case i would suggest finding some good books/articles/media on the Ninja and skimming them to make sure the place lines up historically as well. (if its of its of intrest anyway)

A counter question to the one proposed to myself though, how can you claim something made pre 1800's japan is good for modern day England or japan? Two different cultures, law sets and environments, completely different technology available etc. I personally don't think you can say its good for the modern day in any capacity apart from how to beat someone with your fists if it does that, and there are many places which teach you to do that better.

As a actual response to the question proposed, my second to last reply to people asking was "im no longer answering".

 

[Tony Dismukes]

i focused namely on the "ninja" skills, to which no other thing in the "martial arts school" category can be used as a analog

If you're talking about the stealth/espionage aspects of the historical art, those aren't really taught much anyway. 99+% of Bujinkan training is standard unarmed and weapon-based martial arts. Steve Hayes played up the esoteric "ninja" skills for marketing purposes in his early books, but those don't make up very much of the training and it's just as well. Most Bujinkan instructors don't really have significant skill or knowledge in those areas anyway unless they have it from some other part of their background (military training, etc).

 

[Deleted member 39746]

If you're talking about the stealth/espionage aspects of the historical art, those aren't really taught much anyway. 99+% of Bujinkan training is standard unarmed and weapon-based martial arts.

Oh thank god, i cant get over the stereotypical video of someone dressed up in that ninja outfit where normal clothes or some form of camouflage pattern would work better.

Apart from that i don't think much really sets it apart from any other style? I don't really want to have the argument of why do XYZ over XYZ, but why do it? People must just like their methodology of teaching or want to experience it i suppose. or it has a few gems no other style has, some things have that, or at least one thing thats good in it.

As previously mentioned i haven't done it and given the state of modern i don't think i could trust any place claiming to teach it that its legit. If any of that is covered in your previous post i am going back to read it now.

 

[Buka]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just want to add a caveat. Neither I as a person, martial artist, nor moderator of martialtalk are recommending that people go and ask meth users about what meth is like. Please do not do this, it is a bad idea.

Now you tell me.

 

[BrendanF]

For the record, meth users are tweakers; crack users are crackheads.

Not necessarily.

Outside the US (it exists!!) meth is sometimes called 'crack'. typically places with less cocaine.

 

[Buka]

There's a lot in life that I don't understand.

But how anyone can see those before and after pics of meth heads and say, "yeah, I think I'll go try that drug right there" kind of baffles me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not necessarily.

Outside the US (it exists!!) meth is sometimes called 'crack'. typically places with less cocaine.

Those people are messing up their drugs

 

[Martial D]

Those people are messing up their drugs

And it's probably mutual!

 

[JR 137]

Not necessarily.

Outside the US (it exists!!) meth is sometimes called 'crack'. typically places with less cocaine.

You sure about the world existing outside of the US? Just doesn’t seem logical to me.

 

[JR 137]

There's a lot in life that I don't understand.

But how anyone can see those before and after pics of meth heads and say, "yeah, I think I'll go try that drug right there" kind of baffles me.

Too bad I could only agree once.

My brother has this problem with heroin. I could never understand how he’s seen what it’s done to other people, some of whom we know pretty well, and start doing it anyway. Then there’s the whole needle thing. How does anyone in their right mind think anything good can come from sticking a needle in your arm recreationally.

I guess I’m just not seeing something.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Too bad I could only agree once.

My brother has this problem with heroin. I could never understand how he’s seen what it’s done to other people, some of whom we know pretty well, and start doing it anyway. Then there’s the whole needle thing. How does anyone in their right mind think anything good can come from sticking a needle in your arm recreationally.

I guess I’m just not seeing something.

With heroin- certain reasons for starting make sense to me. A lot of people ended up on heroin through other opiates, that were prescribed and they built up a tolerance, or lost their prescription or got addicted and discovered heroins cheaper on the streets. A couple girls i worked with in the past were victims of sex trafficking, who were forcibly made addicted to heroin as a means of control. Both of those i can understand. Even the people who started as a teen, as a result of peer pressure-not smart, but teenagers aren't known for making good, well thought out decisions. But I still don't get (and ive had it explained to me a ton of times) why people will just pick it up, never having taken opiates in their lives, knowing its effects, and decide to try it out.

 

[JR 137]

With heroin- certain reasons for starting make sense to me. A lot of people ended up on heroin through other opiates, that were prescribed and they built up a tolerance, or lost their prescription or got addicted and discovered heroins cheaper on the streets. A couple girls i worked with in the past were victims of sex trafficking, who were forcibly made addicted to heroin as a means of control. Both of those i can understand. Even the people who started as a teen, as a result of peer pressure-not smart, but teenagers aren't known for making good, well thought out decisions. But I still don't get (and ive had it explained to me a ton of times) why people will just pick it up, never having taken opiates in their lives, knowing its effects, and decide to try it out.

The last part that we both fail to understand is my brother. I’ve tried to figure it out, but at the end of the day it doesn’t change anything. He does what he does for his own reasons. I see him when someone gets married or dies, but beyond that I don’t have any interaction with him anymore. It really kills me, but too many things have happened that I don’t want to subject myself, or far worse, my wife and daughters to anything that could happen. You can only try to help and get burned so many times before you have to turn your back. We’re in a good place right now and no one’s going to change that. Unfortunate, but that’s the way it has to be. We both know it. Until he’s fully recovered, anyway. Then I’ll do everything I can.

He’s seen it enough times before he started. I guess it was that whole “it won’t happen to me” and “I can control it” mentality. Now everything is everyone else’s fault somehow. Typical addict mentality.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The last part that we both fail to understand is my brother. I’ve tried to figure it out, but at the end of the day it doesn’t change anything. He does what he does for his own reasons. I see him when someone gets married or dies, but beyond that I don’t have any interaction with him anymore. It really kills me, but too many things have happened that I don’t want to subject myself, or far worse, my wife and daughters to anything that could happen. You can only try to help and get burned so many times before you have to turn your back. We’re in a good place right now and no one’s going to change that. Unfortunate, but that’s the way it has to be. We both know it. Until he’s fully recovered, anyway. Then I’ll do everything I can.

He’s seen it enough times before he started. I guess it was that whole “it won’t happen to me” and “I can control it” mentality. Now everything is everyone else’s fault somehow. Typical addict mentality.

The everything is everyone else's fault is something I've been struggling to accept at work the last few weeks-seeing how much they're hurting themselves (not just with drugs, with everything...legal issues, jobs, housing, relationships), and continuously blaming everyone else/expecting someone else (read:me) to magically fix it.

The important thing to remember though, beyond what you already said, is while you can't understand why he chose to start it, you can understand why he's continuing it, and what addiction is. There's a lot more out there on the topic today then there was 20 years ago. And for family members it basically comes down to: don't enable them, support their recovery if you can/are willing, and be there for them when they are better. Sadly, not much more can be done.

 

[punisher73]

Tony has pretty much summarized "ninjutsu". It must be remembered that the Samurai and Ninja were "military" type training. So, if we look at our own special forces today, it would be very similar to the same thing. There is not one skill set that is "SEAL training" or "Ranger training". You learn a whole lot of different skills from different instructors. For example, outside of the military training, some special units learn skills like lockpicking, surveillance/countersurveillance of a target person, evasive driving and the list goes on.

If you look at "ninja manuals" that we have historically (actual texts not books written about ninjutsu like Hatsumi or Hayes), they cover topics like using the moon and weather patterns for night time missions, fortress reinforcements, etc.

Looking at the "hand to hand" of the ninja. What would it be designed for? The ninja's job was to avoid detection and get out. His techniques were designed around escaping grabs/holds and getting away and escaping grabs/holds when trying to access their weapon(s) They would not have been designed for a frontal confrontation in a dualing format or designed around the normal "habitual acts of violence" like karate was for civilian self-defense.

I am not saying that you can't adopt those methodologies to self-defense, just that it wasn't their primary consideration or purpose. Also, as Tony said there are some arts that were taught, but were not complete "ninjutsu" methods (only 9 in the bujinkan). The art that Hatsumi teaches now is called "budo taijutsu" and doesn't use the ninja label.

 

[blackknight7891]

I was snooping around on the Internet, when I came across videos and articles about actual ninjutsu schools, like the Bunjinkan of Masaaki Hatsumi. I did some searches about what the shcool had to offer, and I was pretty excited to try my hand one day. But, I also found ton of videos or forum posts, who made harsh critics about ninjutsu teacher on the internet, mocking them and showing that they were fraud.

Now, I'm asking, are all the ninjutsu fraudulent like said in these videos or the reality is more shady?

Thanks a lot for your answer and have a good day!

Bunjinkan has spread quite quickly around the world, no doubt you could find poor instructors or frauds acting under the Bunjinkan name. Hatsumi does claim to the schools he teachers under Bunjinkan.

Does it work, I presuming you interested in Ninjutsu as a self-defence school, if you've ever seen BJJ training or MMA fight, and have no experience training in it, you probably missed all of the little movements and action taken when you see someone break through a guard or move to the back. Its hard to see why something works when you've never done it. Only real way to know if your local Dojo is worth training at is to try it out, usually you can get discounted or free try out classes, and just be aware of what and how things are taught and work out if its worth it for you. at the end of the day you walk away with a new experience.

Some ways to tell if a school might be dodgy.
does the school allow you to train with resistance can you break away with the pattern and play with the technique?
if you train with a partner do they adjust to your movements or do they make you adjust so it works?
when you ask the question "what if they have a knife" and the first answer isn't "give them what they want and run", then run. (this is a big one for me)
when you question how or when a technique might work, you actually get an answer, and not "trust me".
lots of hidden fees.