Bujinkan a fraud?

[Krevon]

To be honest if I ever have to fight again the lineage of my school is not going to keep me from getting beat up. How I train, what I learn, and how well I retain it will make the difference.

 

[Chris Parker]

True, but if you are training in a system due to it's historical legacy, then that historical credibility is important. Otherwise you simply aren't training in the historical legacy that you signed up for. And when it comes to Ninjutsu, the reason many are attracted to it in the first place is due to it's legacy and historical reputation (no matter how out of whack that may be with reality), therefore if there is no historical link to what you're being taught, how is it in any way legitimate? You may use the name Ninjutsu, but that doesn't make it so.

If your only reason for training is modern combat, frankly don't train in a historical system. It just ain't geared up for it without major adaptation. Train in a more modern system, Krav Maga, RBSD, boxing, and so on. If you're training in a historical system, the very fact that there is a history is important, otherwise you're just being taken for a ride.

 

[Tanaka]

So, Brian R. VanCise, Are you calling Christa Jacobson a fraud?

You said the issue is when someone cannot say/display who their master is.....so how do you answer Mr. Cummins' claim that there is no evidence at all that Takamatsu's master ever existed? No documentation, no burial site, nothing.

I would like to take this time to announce that Christa Jacobsons "TOP SECRET NINJA TEACHER" has two Japanese last names.

And I cannot find out his existence. Which a man with two last names should be easy to find.


Takamatsu has confirmed Kukishinden lineage(As far as I know)
And Takamatsu is very well respected martial artist. Making him less likely of being a fraud. Which would damage his reputation.

 

[Tanaka]

To be honest if I ever have to fight again the lineage of my school is not going to keep me from getting beat up. How I train, what I learn, and how well I retain it will make the difference.

If you don't care about retaining a lineage. Then don't worry about Traditional Japanese arts.

Find a modern martial arts school built for self defense.
It's that simple. But the case of this story is... It's not Ninjutsu unless it can be traced back to legitimate Ninjutsu ryuha

 

[Bruno@MT]

Takamatsu has confirmed Kukishinden lineage(As far as I know)
And Takamatsu is very well respected martial artist. Making him less likely of being a fraud. Which would damage his reputation.

Kukishin is confirmed by the kuki family. The Hontain Takagi Yoshin ryu linage is confirmed as well IIRC.

The article I linked to earlier also mentions about some of the other schools in which other sources they are mentioned by name.

 

[Bruno@MT]

What documents are availble proving he existed?
Are there records proving he owned land or registered with the census? How about a birth record?
There was a grave found with Toda but thats is a common last name and really does not prove if it was the same Toda Masamitsu.
The references from Wiki point back to Hatsumi and are not independent sources.
If there needs to be a claim of Toda Masamitsu it should be in offical records like census or other reliable sources.

Honest answer: I don't know. Lots of info got lost in WW2 so that fact that we hit a dead end does not say anything one way or the other. It is also not uncommon for Japanese people to change their name at one point or the other. I know Tanemura soke as well as Hatsumi sensei did so as well. And in Sumo it is still common practice to change for various reasons.

Looking at it form the other angle: Takamatsu was a reknowned martial artist, skilled, humble, not seeking fame or riches, and had an unimpeachable status in a couple of other prestigious arts.

The other arts (with the controversial history) had to have come from somewhere. Even though he was a very skilled artist, I don't think it would be possible for him to 'invent' several new, and very different arts out of nowhere. And why would he invent several ninjutsu arts instead of just 1?

So if we can accept that those arts came from somewhere else, it stands to reason that they must have come from 'someone else' as well. And in that case, it would not make sense to use a fake name or say it was a non existing person instead of an existing one.

 

[Krevon]

If you don't care about retaining a lineage. Then don't worry about Traditional Japanese arts.

Find a modern martial arts school built for self defense.
It's that simple. But the case of this story is... It's not Ninjutsu unless it can be traced back to legitimate Ninjutsu ryuha

I did and I've trained in the Bujinkan the past 3-1/2 years.
The odd thing is, over these past 3-1/2 years is there have been a plethora of people wanting to prove it wrong on the internet and the information given to them hasn't really changed.

 

[oaktree]

Honest answer: I don't know. Lots of info got lost in WW2 so that fact that we hit a dead end does not say anything one way or the other. It is also not uncommon for Japanese people to change their name at one point or the other. I know Tanemura soke as well as Hatsumi sensei did so as well. And in Sumo it is still common practice to change for various reasons

Well if he was alive during Meiji era there should be an offical birth record since he was born of a samurai family. He should have land and records of it. He should have been taken part in a census. If other martial artist knew him aside from Takamatsu and if Kano top student trained with him there should be some records somewhere. Plenty of records of other people during the Meiji era plenty of people after. It's not like he was a low level farmer but 1.A Samurai/born of a Samurai family. 2.Had a famous school.So its really not to much to ask for validation of him since pre-war world 2 arts can trace their line(Aikido,Judo,and many Koryu arts.)



Tanemura and Hatsumi and Sumo wrestlers changed there names but in a martial context I really can not think of many everyday Japanese changing their first name or last names any more than American's changing their first or last name. To be fair Tanemura's first name is still part of his name: Shoto Tsunehisa Tanemura. I am unsure if Hatsumi's first name is part of his legal name or not.

Looking at it form the other angle: Takamatsu was a reknowned martial artist, skilled, humble, not seeking fame or riches, and had an unimpeachable status in a couple of other prestigious arts.

I nor others doubt Takamatsu as a skilled martial artist people question if he learned it from Toda and if so is there proof that Toda exist.

The other arts (with the controversial history) had to have come from somewhere. Even though he was a very skilled artist, I don't think it would be possible for him to 'invent' several new, and very different arts out of nowhere. And why would he invent several ninjutsu arts instead of just 1?

Plenty of people invent arts everyday look at all the fake Ninja arts that come here so of course its possible for someone who already has an understanding of arts in that time period and is Japanese to make it up.

To play Devil advocate for a minute, Many people come claiming Ninjutsu in modern times and we hear the story I learned it from a secret asian man named Tanaka whatever but he died and there is no record of him. Can you see how if we replace Tanaka whatever with Toda you have the same thing.

Is it possible Takamatsu learned a legit system of course, could he have learned it from someone else and just created a person named Toda for whatever reason sure.

So if we can accept that those arts came from somewhere else, it stands to reason that they must have come from 'someone else' as well. And in that case, it would not make sense to use a fake name or say it was a non existing person instead of an existing one.

We do not know if Takamatsu created it or reconstructed it himself and just used the name Toda to add credit to it. So the reasoning that it comes from somewhere means someone else does not hold much weight. Takamatsu claims to learned it from Toda no proof of Toda no proof of transmission to Takamatsu.

But if you are happy with the art as it is presented then thats all that matters.

 

[Indagator]

the X-kans [say] that anything that doesn't have lineage to Togakure Ryu is fake and isn't real Ninjutsu

Um... Togakure Ryu is not the only Ninjutsu lineage within the X-Kans. I'm sure that anything with lineage to either of the other two would suffice as well...


I'm just sayin', is all...

 

[Aiki Lee]

Well, I guess you're technically right, but the other legitimate ninjutsu systems like kumogakure are not really taught to anyone, so Togakure is really the only one people tend to have experience in.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well, I guess you're technically right, but the other legitimate ninjutsu systems like kumogakure are not really taught to anyone, so Togakure is really the only one people tend to have experience in.

Not quite.
I know Dale Saego was taught (or shown) some of kumogakure ryu. Tanemura Soke learned it as well, as presumably several other Japanese Shihan.

Dale mentioned that the taijutsu aspects of kumogakure are very similar to the taijutsu which comes from the other systems, so there is little point in saying 'this is kumogakure'. I also read that kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu contain a lot of the more 'ninja' skills, like castle penetration etc, and not that much taijutsu. Given that the BBT revolves around taijutsu, I can understand why those particular arts do not get taught explicitly except perhaps to the Japanese shihan.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I was aware that there was a lot of simularity in the physical movements, and I didn't mean to imply that no one knew anything about those arts.

My statement was just a generalization as to why anyone with ninjutsu training other than Togakure ryu might be viewed with skepticism since it is find anyone who trained in kumogakure ryu or gyokushin ryu.

On the note of arts not discussed often, what of Gikan ryu? Anybody care to shed some light on what that one is all about or if it is taught ever?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Gikan ryu will be the topic for the Genbukan taikai in Japan this year.
Kotaro Tanemura Shihan has received menkyo kaiden. Other than that it has not yet been taught in Genbukan IIRC.

 

[EWBell]

Gikan ryu will be the topic for the Genbukan taikai in Japan this year.
Kotaro Tanemura Shihan has received menkyo kaiden. Other than that it has not yet been taught in Genbukan IIRC.

I believe bits and pieces have been shown here and there, by Tanemura Soke, but kind of snuck in among other things without saying what it was. The Japan Tai Kai this year will be the first time it will be openly shown and taught by Tanemura Soke. It also will probably be the last time.

 

[Bruno@MT]

The Japan Tai Kai this year will be the first time it will be openly shown and taught by Tanemura Soke. It also will probably be the last time.

Is there a paricular reason why this would be the case?

 

[EWBell]

Is there a paricular reason why this would be the case?

Well normally the ryu-ha was only passed from father to son. However, to really answer your question I'll ask you to look at the original Gikan Ryu Tai Kai announcement at the Genbukan website. It says this will be the first and last time it will be taught openly. So basically, because Tanemura Soke says so.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks. I didn't look at the announcement yet. I don't really pay much attention to the taikai since I am not going anyway. And of course, being 8th kyu, ryuha studies are not really on my agenda. The genbukan and kjjr kyu level curriculum contains enough challenges to keep me very busy for the next 7 years or so.

Although I would not say no to schooling in one of the jujutsu ryuha on a regular basis That is the actual reason I signed up (not the ryuha but KJJR jujutsu). I didn't know about the ninpo until after I arranged with the sensei to drop by for a trial lesson.

 

[RoninX]

I don´t understand why so many people argue about the autheticy of this stuff when probably not even Hatsumi knows how "real" what he learnt is.

Nobody in this thread will be able to prove you anything. They won´t prove you that Toda existed and they won´t prove that Togakure Ryu is what Hatsumi says it is.

And the fact is that nobody has to prove you anything. The only person who has to answer about the autheticy of this art is it´s Soke, Masaaki Hatsumi. Anybody wanting to know more about the autheticy subject should go ask Hatsumi.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I don´t understand why so many people argue about the autheticy of this stuff when probably not even Hatsumi knows how "real" what he learnt is.

Nobody in this thread will be able to prove you anything. They won´t prove you that Toda existed and they won´t prove that Togakure Ryu is what Hatsumi says it is.

And the fact is that nobody has to prove you anything. The only person who has to answer about the autheticy of this art is it´s Soke, Masaaki Hatsumi. Anybody wanting to know more about the autheticy subject should go ask Hatsumi.

The question is relevant for people who don't want to belong to a group of neo ninjers who made up a fantasy martial art based on what they saw in bad movies. When I joined Genbukan I did a lot of research before I applied for membership, to make sure that I was not joining the people I already disliked when I was a decade younger, practising modern jujutsu and only knew about neoninjers I met at a seminar.

I can't judge how things go in the Bujinkan, but the odds that I would be able to talk to Tanemura Soke and ask him questions without following protocol and going via my sensei and then Shihan are slim. Very slim indeed. Especially if I wanted to grill him on this subject (not that I would, even if I could). Non-members would not fare much better I think.

So if people want to know what they are getting into and they can't have access to the various Soke, then they have only 1 place to turn to and that is the internet. And personally I think it is great that people inform themselves before joining an organization. It prevents much disappointment.

 

[ronin7411]

I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.

http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4

http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html