Are Hapkido Techniques Good for TKD?

[VegMan]

I was following a very, very heated debate over at another forum about teaching Hapkido techniques to TKD students. Someone made a DVD that seems to mix TKD with Hapkido skills. A lot of the people over on that forum said that such DVD is useless because the two arts are completely different, and some said most TKD schools already teach some Hapkido skills. Most people on that forum are hardcore Hapkido folks, so I wonder what TKD practitioners think of this mix. Are you guys interested in learning the “soft” skills like pressure points and joint locking? Is such a mixed technique DVD useful to you, or is it junk?

If you want to check out what the Hapkido guys are saying over on the other forum, here is the link to that heated post: http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2807

 

[VinsonTKD]

Well, here is my opinion on it...
I figure why study only one way to do things. Study multiple ways, then you can mix the two together and create an even more effective move/situation. I would say trying to do a little of both is bad. But teaching one as a primary and adding things from another is perfect! I am very interested in using pressure points and other studies in TaeKwonDo. I think that sometimes people tend to pick an art and think of it as the ONE and ONLY that will do everything. Mixing it up will allow the arts to be used in different situations.
Plus, they are both Korean arts! So why not!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Our GM is very profficient in both tkd and hapkido and fuses the two together well. We are primarily a tkd club but a lot of hapkido is taught and from what Ive seen I really dont have a problem with it. I think learning tkd and just throwing in a move or two here and there from hapkido may lead to problems but if the instructor teaching the hapkido really knows what they're doing and it is taught to a set curriculum then I think it only adds to the overall knowledge of the student.

 

[dancingalone]

I was following a very, very heated debate over at another forum about teaching Hapkido techniques to TKD students. Someone made a DVD that seems to mix TKD with Hapkido skills. A lot of the people over on that forum said that such DVD is useless because the two arts are completely different, and some said most TKD schools already teach some Hapkido skills. Most people on that forum are hardcore Hapkido folks, so I wonder what TKD practitioners think of this mix. Are you guys interested in learning the “soft” skills like pressure points and joint locking? Is such a mixed technique DVD useful to you, or is it junk?

If you want to check out what the Hapkido guys are saying over on the other forum, here is the link to that heated post: http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2807

There are two recent threads in the Hapkido forum here that are very closely related to the discussion you describe. Take a gander if you'd like (see below).

I really don't have much new to add to the discussion here that I haven't said in those two threads, but I do believe the animosity from some Hapkido people over the idea of adapting some techniques from Hapkido for use in TKD is at least in some part "turf war" related. I don't think you would have the same outrage on perhaps a judo forum if someone asked if it would be possible to add some judo concepts into tae kwon do practice.


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83829

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83916

 

[Drac]

I have avoided posting in those threads due to the negitivity generated by some of the posters..Personally I have blended techniques from Hapkido with those I learned from the Shorin-Ryu discipline and police defensive tactics..They have been effective and have kept me safe on the streets when I was in active law enforcement..

 

[Manny]

Yes, HKD techs are worth to ad to our TKD curriculum, in fact I would love to have some HKD practice inside my dojang. I firmly think tha we TKDoings can beneficiate in learning some HKD techs, this would lead us tobe more prepared, and I think tha even TKD and HKD are in some way oposed they are related.

We use in our dojang in our self defense techs some trows and joint locks from HKD.

Manny

 

[dortiz]

"I really don't have much new to add to the discussion here that I haven't said in those two threads, but I do believe the animosity from some Hapkido people over the idea of adapting some techniques from Hapkido for use in TKD is at least in some part "turf war" related. I don't think you would have the same outrage on perhaps a judo forum if someone asked if it would be possible to add some judo concepts into tae kwon do practice."

The difference is what is seen almost every day on too many schools. Last night as I waited for our HKD group to take the mat the TKD club was wrapping up. It was self defense night and in horror I watched as a basic technique like a wrist throw was being butchered. Instead of turning the wrist and finding the angle which would create pain compliance and take their balance back the attacker was forcefully latching on to the arm and trying to muscle the person down. The next 4 techniques were the same.
So unlike where another art may introduce a technique what we see a lot is really horrible HKDesque stuff being taught and in a lot and the worst case its being claimed that the group is now learning the art.
Its only because this is such a butchered issue that its become and extremely sensitive one.
Not right or wrong juts the sad state that has taken place.

 

[dancingalone]

Its only because this is such a butchered issue that its become and extremely sensitive one.
Not right or wrong juts the sad state that has taken place.

I appreciate that nuance and I believe the people who are interested in the topic of "adding on" to TKD do as well. No one wants to practice bad & ineffective martial arts. What would be the point?

What I keep on returning to over and over again is that I believe it is possible to build a library of self-defense techniques inspired from a variety of sources, including hapkido, and teach them as enrichment material to martial artists from hard, striking-oriented systems. It wouldn't be "HAPKIDO" or "JUDO", but it would still be of value.

The funny thing is that karate bunkai is chock full of this type of material, yet it's not questioned there. Perhaps because karate is older and this stuff is considered to be self-contained? But, if you even mention trying to draw ideas or inspiration from hapkido for use in tae kwon do....

 

[dortiz]

"No one wants to practice bad & ineffective martial arts. What would be the point?"
And yet I personally witness it many times a week.

"The funny thing is that karate bunkai is chock full of this type of material, yet it's not questioned there. Perhaps because karate is older and this stuff is considered to be self-contained? But, if you even mention trying to draw ideas or inspiration from hapkido for use in tae kwon do"

Maybe a better example is the Bunkai movement fits the karate versus trying to switch to an Aikido entrance from where you just came in in a linear fashion.
I know there are Hapkido/Aikido/Ji Jitsu etc. "like" techniques that can be added but trying to have a TKD person pick up Hapkido is another discussion. 25 years in and having trained both I will say there was a point my TKD teacher would laugh and say you have really become a HKD guy doing TKD now. I cant switch it off. Its how I play.

At the same time I get what you are now describing. An art that has kicking, punching and then throws and locks. Thats Hapkido : )

 

[StudentCarl]

For me it depends on your perspective:

When I'm working on competitive olympic style TKD, I'm focused on technique, speed, footwork, reading my opponent, and combinations.
When I'm working on TKD for skill and promotion I'm trying to use my body to make techniques the best and smoothest I can so I improve.
When I'm working on self-defense skills I ignore the turf battles and shamelessly learn what works.

I think striking, clinch, locking/choking, tripping/throwing, and grappling skills all belong in my self-defense repertoire, so I learn all I can.

I like the pressure to cope with adrenaline and my mind when I fight in tournaments, even though I don't use all the technique I'd use in self-defense.

Carl

 

[dancingalone]

"No one wants to practice bad & ineffective martial arts. What would be the point?"
And yet I personally witness it many times a week.

That's on the master of the school, regardless of the system or style.

Maybe a better example is the Bunkai movement fits the karate versus trying to switch to an Aikido entrance from where you just came in in a linear fashion.
I know there are Hapkido/Aikido/Ji Jitsu etc. "like" techniques that can be added but trying to have a TKD person pick up Hapkido is another discussion. 25 years in and having trained both I will say there was a point my TKD teacher would laugh and say you have really become a HKD guy doing TKD now. I cant switch it off. Its how I play.

Indeed. We've all agreed good design and adaptation is a must, which is why I dislike the framing of the discussion as "a TKD guy adding on Hapkido". That's a non-starter obviously. The take downs in karate bunkai make sense because they are intentionally well-designed. Surely it's not a huge reach to think the same could be done in tae kwon do yet outside of a hyung framework? It's been done before.

At the same time I get what you are now describing. An art that has kicking, punching and then throws and locks. Thats Hapkido : )

Some forms of Okinawan karate fit that description too. And I believe tae kwon do can get there also.

 

[dortiz]

The funny thing is that the HKD guys are defending their art but in truth these threads should say how do we fix or enhance TKD.
This is all about the journey the art has taken and how its gotten farther and farther from it roots and in such lost pieces.
Shotokon is already a simplified version of its original styles and lost some of what is being searched for here as it was introduced in to the school system. Then that turned in to TKD. Look at what the early pioneers did on old film and you see distance closed and sweeps etc. Today its drastically watered down to a fine and wonderful sport but even more is gone.
So now to walk in and insert pieces to something that has changed so much is going to be tough. Not impossible but tough.
Remember Kumbajahs argument was never that a good HKD person could not help teach some things, It was that a TKD person would not get these things from a video.
Somehow thats gotten lost here. I am all for some great stylists help properly insert Bunkai as Simon and Stuart have done. Then it must be taught and learned properly.

I typed this before you typed your response

 

[dancingalone]

I am all for some great stylists help properly insert Bunkai as Simon and Stuart have done. Then it must be taught and learned properly.

True, but bunkai is really another discussion. Why bother emphasizing bunkai if historically bunkai hasn't been taught in tae kwon do schools to begin with? What not just start with the discrete techniques themselves like a hip throw or a shoulder throw and teach them in isolation? Later as you introduce complexity, you can add entering footwork off attacks along with any other variation you please.

The bunkai framework works for karate since it has always been there or it should have been. Why add the additional layer though for someone who has never had it in their training?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I've been reading and posting some on the the other "add on hapkido" thread, but this one is much more civil.. . As with Dancing and Dortiz, I don't have much to add on the subject. I teach/practice Moo Duk Kwan TKD, and my Kwan Jang Nim studied MDK back in the early 50's and he worked on much more than what is known as the kicking and striking art TKD is known for today. He has many scars all over his hands from knife fighting, we learn grips, locks, throws, take downs, on top of the kicking and striking, albeit the kicking is certainly what is focused on the most. I cannot say what I practice is Hapkido-esque or not, as I do not know anyone who practices hapkido.. . I know all of these techs as MDK TKD that I have been taught, and ultimately I don't care what you call it because it works. I guess this statement could upset some "purists," but I think some people can't see proverbial "forest for the trees." Styles have evolved over time in ancient and not so ancient history, and no one bashed them for "bastardizing" their art.

To some extent, IMHO, this is what a "master" of an art does; they know the foundation and then contribute to the art. You learn the alphabet, then you learn vocabulary, and grammar, but some people will go out and write books containing new ideas or compile an anthology of their favorite ideas. In terms of this language analogy, the slippery slope in these cases is maintainig that foundation of the alphabet, vocabulary and grammar. You can't speak swahili, with urban slang thrown in, and still call it English.

If you adapt/integrate techniques or concepts that parallel the foundation of your art and can be explained under the same principles of your art, then who is to say it is not your art? This is exactly what boon hae/bunkai embraces, IMO.

Another problem I have seen discussed in these threads is that people are trying to pass off these add on "'Hapkido techniques" as teaching the art of Hapkido. However, I do not believe that is what this thread's OP nor Dancing's "add-on hapkido" thread's OP. But it is an important distinction to make. I don't believe any of us want someone passing a few bastardized techs as a complete art.. . It only does a disservice to the students and the art.

 

[khand50]

hi,
just from reading this thread it seems to me that the problem that exists is still the arguement over styles. who's teaching this and calling it that...who does it belong to? who is doing it right or wrong according to our way of doing it?
think with me for a moment, outside of the box that is the concept of styles...
think about the individual style that focuses on kicks, or the one that focuses on throwing, or the one that focuses on grappling. a person who practices a style of martial art that focuses on one tiny aspect of combat is limited. seeing that limitation sets them on the path to discover how to overcome the limitation. they seek out other arts to find a more completeness within themselves.
so they go study an art that focuses on hand techniques. the kicker learns to use his hands. but still that isnt enough. he needs to find a way, once close enough to his opponent, to take him off his feet. so he finds a style that teaches throwing and takedowns. well, now he has those three skills. but what happens when he is on the ground? well, now he has to learn about grappling...and so on it goes.
if you think less about which style it is or comes from and more about what it will do to help you grow, you will come to see that a true martial artist isnt classified by any style at all, but by his ability to adapt and to move with the opponent and to use all the skills of the martial arts. i set about to discover what those were back in the eighties. i listed them for when i wanted to learn more about myself and to teach others. here is the list i came up with, that a more complete martial artist should possess:
1-stance/body position
2-footwork/mobility
3-offensive hand techniques
4-defensive hand techniques
5-offensive leg techniques
6-defensive leg techniques
7-throws/sweeps/takedowns
8-grappling/pinning
9-choke/strangle
10-miscelaneous controlling and maiming
11-joint/anti-joint-lock/break/throw

these are the main elements of the martial arts. some arts only use some of these elements in their teaching. some focus on part of the martial arts and dont teach the martial arts in its wholeness. years ago, when i trained in tae kwon do, we practiced some self defense techniques but we didnt do much with it. in studying tkd i felt very limited by the lack of hand techniques, especially when i fought against boxers. eventually i was able to train at a chinese based martial art school with an emphasis on wing chun and overcame some of my lack of skills in close range fighting. the added understanding i got from training in filipino arts helped even more. then i found a jkd school which helped me to work with western boxing skills as well.
can hapkido techniques be good for tkd? certainly. but like someone posted earlier, be dilligent to learn the proper application of the method of breakholds, of joint/anti-joint locks/breaks/throws. i have had two wonderful books on hapkido over the years. one by kwang sik myung and the other by marc tedeshi. hapkido has alot of great stuff to offer in that field of joint manipulation. so does aikido and kali and chin na. chin na is where all that came from anyways.
the problem is, with most styles and instructors, (some jkd included), that when you train in one art and add to what you are learning, you change the art that you are learning. most traditional schools, instructors, styles are against this because they feel that the only person who can add or take away from a style is the founder or the head. well, this is the whole point of not having individual systems. instead, we need men (or women) who will guide others to find their own ways in the martial arts. you start by learning the very basics of the martial arts, which i described above. the individual techniques may vary, but in all, most styles contain the same basic ones. front kick. side kick. turning (hook) kick. back kick. thrust punch. backfist. bottom or hammer fist. ridge hand strike. upper block. lower block. inside block. outside block. hip throw. shoulder throw. leg sweep. etc, etc. all of those basics can be taught in a school. a person can develop those skills if they set themselves to practice them. i had this point of view before i ever read anything by bruce lee on jkd. but when i did read what lee had to say it made sense with what i already knew. it is not the style that is important, but the man who is expressing himself.
i am not against those who wish to train one style and master one style and live for one style. i understand the dedication it takes to do so. but for those who are seeking beyond systems, seeking to find what they lack, they should be less concerned over the individual system and more concerned of the individual person.
i know that this isnt exactly the direct answer to the question but i felt that another viewpoint might be appreciated in response to the question asked. ive been through all this over the years and still see people who wont better themselves by studying other arts for fear of reprimand from their instructors or styles. and again, i dont say all this to upset anyone as i do understand why someone chooses to train and keep their art "pure". but, when a person asks this kind of question then i see them as searching for more and i hope that what i have said will help those who are seeking. if you arent seeking then let these words fall upon you as rain on the roof of your house. thanks for listening...

 

[DBZ]

"..... in horror I watched as a basic technique like a wrist throw was being butchered. Instead of turning the wrist and finding the angle which would create pain compliance and take their balance back the attacker was forcefully latching on to the arm and trying to muscle the person down. The next 4 techniques were the same.
.......

This is why i go to two schools. TKD is my primary art, but I also take Kenpo for self-defence at the the 2nd school

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was following a very, very heated debate over at another forum about teaching Hapkido techniques to TKD students. Someone made a DVD that seems to mix TKD with Hapkido skills. A lot of the people over on that forum said that such DVD is useless because the two arts are completely different, and some said most TKD schools already teach some Hapkido skills. Most people on that forum are hardcore Hapkido folks, so I wonder what TKD practitioners think of this mix. Are you guys interested in learning the “soft” skills like pressure points and joint locking? Is such a mixed technique DVD useful to you, or is it junk?

If you want to check out what the Hapkido guys are saying over on the other forum, here is the link to that heated post: http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2807

Assuming that the video is well done, it would be useful as reference material to augment training under a qualified instructor.

Replace "video" with book and ask yourself the same question. Generally, a video will offer superior visual; you can actually see the person moving rather than extrapolating from stills, but the book will contain a lot more detailed analysis than a video will. Both books and videos are good media for reference material. But just as you really cannot effectively learn hapkido techniques from a book, you cannot effectively learn them from a video either.

Daniel

 

[oftheherd1]

Interesting discussion. I haven't looked at the other threads, but thought I would put in my two cents. My background: I studied TKD many years ago, but only got lower belt training before I had to stop. I also studied Moo Duk Kwan for a month or so before the instructor had to quit. That looked like a really good practical art. Later, 20 some years ago, I began studying Hap Ki Do, and have not changed.

I personally have no problem with TKD learning Hap Ki Do techniques. I worry about what is mentioned in #7 above. How much has the instructor learned, and how correctly is he teaching? In TDK you wouldn't want to learn to punch hard with a loose fist and a bent wrist. Why would you want to learn a HKD technique incorrectly. One of the things done in HKD is to move into an attack. You must be quick and accurate or you have done what your attacker could not hope for; you have placed yourself his sphere of greatest power with no defense. Not a wise move. So the two things I would caveat is that proper due be given Hap Ki Do (or any other art from which a technique is borrowed), and that the technique be taught correctly.

An interesting aside is that there are Hap Ki Do moves in TKD forms. I once taught a 4th dan TKO student. From time to time I would see a light come on in his eyes as I taught him a Hap Ki Do technique. He would then tell me he recognized something from a TKD form, that he could see no practical use for in fighting, and had been told was for art. I don't know if the GMs really didn't know what that move was, or for whatever reason, didn't want to tell the student until some rank after 4th Dan.

Now, HKD is a relatively new art. So is TKD actually. Both use moves from ancient times. Despite some, even GMs, to the contrary, neither can be traced back thousands of years as they are now. Are some of the forms or techinques thousands of years old. I certainly should think so. Who owns them? Their modern day practicioners, whatever style. It simply behooves the GMs and other instructors to ensure they know well what they are teaching. If what they teach seems to be emphacised by one art to the general exclusion of others, it might be well to credit them for preserving it. But most things are indeed old, and known from ancient times, but just preferred differently by different styles.

Others are free to have their own opinions of course, and may agree or disagree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding TKD and HKD blending, taking the question of video instruction out of the mix, yes, they can. ITF taekwondo incorporates hapkido techniques in its hoshinsul. For years in TKD, much of the self defense portion has been culled from HKD (my past few years have been in a Kukkiwon school with a master who is a high dan in both HKD and TKD).

Yes, it can be done and yes, it can be done effectively. My only caveat is that the instructor should be qualifed to teach both HKD an TKD techniques.

Daniel

 

[oftheherd1]

Regarding TKD and HKD blending, taking the question of video instruction out of the mix, yes, they can. ITF taekwondo incorporates hapkido techniques in its hoshinsul. For years in TKD, much of the self defense portion has been culled from HKD (my past few years have been in a Kukkiwon school with a master who is a high dan in both HKD and TKD).

Yes, it can be done and yes, it can be done effectively. My only caveat is that the instructor should be qualifed to teach both HKD an TKD techniques.

Daniel

Yes sir, absolutely. Don't learn techniques badly and then try to use them. You will use them badly.