Are 99% of CMA's crap?

[mantis]

okay
let's assume that the utlimate goal of all martial arts in the world since 4000 years ago was to get to the UFC and K1 rings in the year 2006.

7starmantis i want to ask you a question what do you think the reaction of your sifu and sigung to you participating in these tournaments?

I am just using you as an example of a person learned under an 'authentic' family.

 

[mantis]

Thanks, Crane! Couldn't have said it better myself.

it's like saying if you do not know how to play games on PC then you cannot be a good computer scientist!

 

[AceHBK]

The problem is that some MMA practictioners feel that MMA is the end all to be all in terms of fighting. They are not interested in learning art, they are interested in learning how to fight. There is a difference.

Traditional CMA's take time to learn and you need a good instructor. Too many today want to learn how to fight (rather than defend themselves) and be a good fighter in the shortest amount of time. Is there anything wrong with that? No, but dont bash CMA's b/c of your choice.

When it comes to CMA's, it was about internal and extermal. You had to learn how to first heal before you could learn how to injure. It is something that is lifelong and not just a sport for a few years.

It can easily be said that MMA is good for one on one fighting but when it comes to multiple attackers then you are outta luck. Does that mean since you can win one on one but cant win in a attack on the street against 2 or 3 attacker you suck? Of course not.

Just b/c someone doesnt get into a ring doesnt mean they are not good. How you act in a life or death situation and how you act in a sport are totally different. Now for myself I get nothing from tournaments and what not b/c I feel no need to prove things to someone else to show how vaid I and my technique are. I rather spend my life learning and art and never once needing to use it than doing it for sports sake. Now everyone doesnt think like that and I understand. I love watching MMA anytime I get the chance and I dont trash it just b/c it doesnt have the same beliefs that I have when it comes to my art.

 

[AceHBK]

Flying Crane and 7* have made some great points.

 

[Flying Crane]

The problem is that some MMA practictioners feel that MMA is the end all to be all in terms of fighting.

I'd like to add to this that it gets to be a bit tiresome when every thread gets hijacked and turned into the same old debate over which is better, MMA/UFC style competitions, vs. Traditional Martial Arts. I understood the intention of this thread to be a discussion of quality in Chinese martial arts, what is good, what is poor, what might be done better, etc. But here we are, taking another detour down the same old highway of UFC debate. I wish some people could just control their apparently compulsive urge to always have to start this kind of argument. It just detracts from the original intention of the thread and it gets to be a drag.

OK, i'm off my soapbox now. thanks for putting up.

 

[mantis]

I'd like to add to this that it gets to be a bit tiresome when every thread gets hijacked and turned into the same old debate over which is better, MMA/UFC style competitions, vs. Traditional Martial Arts. I understood the intention of this thread to be a discussion of quality in Chinese martial arts, what is good, what is poor, what might be done better, etc. But here we are, taking another detour down the same old highway of UFC debate. I wish some people could just control their apparently compulsive urge to always have to start this kind of argument. It just detracts from the original intention of the thread and it gets to be a drag.

OK, i'm off my soapbox now. thanks for putting up.

you are correct. someone has to steer this some other direction.

btw, i am tired of people calling computers a "soapbox". you guys are hurting my feelings. i work with soapboxes, i mean computers!!

 

[AceHBK]

I'd like to add to this that it gets to be a bit tiresome when every thread gets hijacked and turned into the same old debate over which is better, MMA/UFC style competitions, vs. Traditional Martial Arts. I understood the intention of this thread to be a discussion of quality in Chinese martial arts, what is good, what is poor, what might be done better, etc. But here we are, taking another detour down the same old highway of UFC debate. I wish some people could just control their apparently compulsive urge to always have to start this kind of argument. It just detracts from the original intention of the thread and it gets to be a drag.

OK, i'm off my soapbox now. thanks for putting up.

You are correct it did steer off the intended path.

It seems that CMA's have been around the longest (please correct me if I am wrong) but don't get the same amount of respect anymore like they use too.

I know many people say that you have to "find a good school" but for many newbie's how are they to know a good school/teacher from a bad one? I know if i went out right now to find a good school/teacher I would have no idea to tell. If you are not familiar with techniques how can someone know the difference between good and bad?

But to a certain extent it is b/c of UFC's and such that many TMA's are referred to as being not good b/c many never really see it in action. I know i have to go to google video to search and search to find some worthy clips.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know many people say that you have to "find a good school" but for many newbie's how are they to know a good school/teacher from a bad one? I know if i went out right now to find a good school/teacher I would have no idea to tell. If you are not familiar with techniques how can someone know the difference between good and bad?

Good point, it can be hard to know, and often a good school is the exact opposite of what we in the Western culture tend to think a good school should be. A while back I posted some thoughts and a description of this, maybe I can find that thread again, it might be relevant here...

 

[Andrew Green]

A "good school" is one that looks very much like my own, or at least how I percieve my own. The more it differs from the perception of my own, the worse it is.

... I think that's about what people usually mean by "Good school"

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, here is the link to the discussion about, coincidentally enough, what makes a good kung fu school. I posted thoughts and descriptions of what a Traditional kung fu school might be like, but I will be the first to admit, especially for Westerners, that this can be a frustrating experience. I think not everyone can be successful in a Traditional type kung fu school. It assumes that the student has a tremendous amount of drive to pursue training, especially with regards to figuring out how to really use the material, with minimal guidance from the instructor. For beginners, this can be disasterous.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30621

 

[AceHBK]

1.) I think what is lacking is serious skilled teachers. Next to that is people willing to do what it takes to become truly skilled in CMA, which I think leads to unskilled, mislead teachers. Next is serious motives for studying CMA. Too many people watch jackie and want to learn to move like him. Too many people watch old kung fu movies and are unable to distinguish between truth and make believe. These people then come into the kung fu school and want to learn the "secrets" to flying around shooting lighting balls and dont want to train. Next you have those who train hard, practice on their own, who are sriously seeking to be skilled practitioners but are just mislead by either the same type of people teaching them or by simply not knowing what is worth training and what is not. Finding seriusly skilled CMA teachers who understand more than surface movements and have the skill to apply these principles to fighting and can and will actually teach that is a rare thing.

*holds head in shame* I am one of the victims of kung fu theatre. But I will say I realized the difference between fantasy and reality and realized the art and movements and wanted to learn and knew that it does take a looooong time to become good. There needs to be some standard in making sure there are quality instructors teaching people.

2.) I think the "westernization" of it actually did help to spread this issue, but we can't blame that and expect a change. I think the "westernized" students are the major contributors. Then these "students" become "teachers"...yikes.

I think this is a big problem as well. But then to those westerners who are good teachers they get hurt by this b/c then people say, "hey your not Chinese so how can you be good at CMA's?" It becomes then a double edged sword.

3.) I think the CMA community needs to put aside their massive egos, swallow their obese pride complexes and start training. I have no problem with people learning CMA forms and such but they shouldn't pass themselves off as fighters. I think years back these false fighters would have been exposed but in today's society its easy for someone to claim skill and never prove it. Thats ok though, it makes my training that much more effective and real. Its just sad that so many people are mislead by these teachers and schools. Too many people are overconcerned with lineage and the transcription of ancient transcripts to get out and train hard. Too many people are unwilling to go through the pain, sweat, tears, and blood it takes.....way too few. And on that note, way too few are patient enough to spend the time it takes to really understand nad learn things. It takes years to be a competent fighter, you can't shorten it to months and expect to have the same grasp of the concepts and principles.

7sm

I agree with this whole heartedly/ Politics plays WAY too much of a role in CMA's today. It is less about the art and strengthing it and is more about who lays claims to what.

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, I've got some thoughts on how people in Traditional Chinese arts ought to train.

First, basics are important. Stance work, foot work, how to punch, kick, and do other strikes properly, blocking, evading, etc. This is the stuff that everything else is built upon. This is the foundation. If this stuff is weak, all the rest will be weak. Don't build a house on a foundation made of sand.

Second, forms are important. Forms teach how to link basics into useful combinations on a theoretical level. This is where the bulk of the material is taught, that makes up the system. This is where the nuances and flavor of the system is most apparent. This is where Mantis looks like Mantis, Monkey looks like Monkey, Tiger looks like Tiger, Crane looks like Crane, etc.

Third, power and conditioning should be developed thru striking. This can include arm-against-arm, heavy bags, makiwara, sand bags, wooden dummy, etc. These exercises harden and condition the striking and blocking surfaces of the body, and develop the ability to strike with decisive power. Tools like the Wood Dummy also develop movement, positioning, angles, and to some degree, useage of techniques.

Fourth, useage of the material needs to be developed. This can be done in many ways. People need to have training partners to work with, where they take the material from the basics and forms, and apply it against realistic attacks. Partnering should run the full range of cooperative (when first learning how to use the technique) to completely uncooperative (to develope the ability to use the technique realistically, in an unpredictable situation). There are many ways to develope this kind of training drill, limited only by the imagination. Most systems also have traditional drills that are designed to develop this skill, such as Chi Sau in Wing Chun.

Some type of free sparring should also be used to remove any cooperation, and develop skills that can be used creatively, and in an uncooperative situation. The problem is that people can get too used to sparring and training with people from their own school, and within their own style. It is good to get experience training with, and sparring against those from other styles. I don't think this needs to be in the form of a tournment. What would be best, in my opinion, is to develop friendships with other schools, or individual who train different arts, and spend time working techniques, and sparring, with these people. It shouldn't be competitive, but rather in the spirit of everyone learning and growing.

I believe that the problem most people encounter is with focusing too heavily or exclusively on one or two aspects of training, and not enough on the others. To be a well trained CMA person, one needs to train all aspects, so they understand their art on a technical and theoretical level, and can also realistically utilize the material that their art holds.

Any thoughts are welcome.

 

[7starmantis]

7starmantis i want to ask you a question what do you think the reaction of your sifu and sigung to you participating in these tournaments?

I know, they helped me train for them. In fact, Sigung took one of our students in and helped train him (he wanted to go professional) and even set up fights for him and took him to events. He invited other schools in the area to come fight and such. Sigung was the east coast full contact champion in the 60's before even starting Kung Fu. I think its a misconception that "traditional" or "authentic" kung fu must avoid fighting at all costs, I mean thats what we train to do, fight. When we begin speaking about what CMA communities need to do more of, I think one of those things is fight. I understand there are those who learn it for the forms, health, art of it; but they can't (or shouldn't) pass themselves off as skilled fighters, they simply are not. There is a huge difference in those two training methods and intents. Thats one of the reasons we started a testing schedeul for students who have passed black level who are interested in becoming "disciples" of the style and want to pursue all aspects of it, heavly the fighting. There is a lack of truly skilled mantis fighters and we want to perserve that skill and further it through the years.

I think most CMAs would be wise to do something similar, just far to few people are willing to go through what it takes....its hard and most people dont get through it.

7sm

 

[mantis]

i think these are really great recommendations but how much time is that?
how many years, and how many hours a day/week to accomplish all this? (on average)

 

[Flying Crane]

i think these are really great recommendations but how much time is that?
how many years, and how many hours a day/week to accomplish all this? (on average)

\

You cannot put a number on it. It is constant, and forever. As much time as you have, and that you are willing and eager to dedicate to it is enough, but never enough. There is always room for more, but reality often gets in the way. There is no end-goal, only a road. Enjoy the journey.

 

[mantis]

\

You cannot put a number on it. It is constant, and forever. As much time as you have, and that you are willing and eager to dedicate to it is enough, but never enough. There is always room for more, but reality often gets in the way. There is no end-goal, only a road. Enjoy the journey.

absolutely
which leads us to the next point about students. students do not spend much time practicing outside of the school or class time

it's like going to college, if you only attend lectures you will not do good. you have to go to the library, to the lab, and you have to spend some time studying on your own.

this is necessary whether you want to spend 1 year, or 25 years practicing KF. i think!

 

[Flying Crane]

absolutely
which leads us to the next point about students. students do not spend much time practicing outside of the school or class time

it's like going to college, if you only attend lectures you will not do good. you have to go to the library, to the lab, and you have to spend some time studying on your own.

this is necessary whether you want to spend 1 year, or 25 years practicing KF. i think!

In my opinion, you are 100% correct.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes and thats one of the main problems in the CMA community. Too many people are unwilling to go to the lab, library, etc and do the hard work it takes to really gain the skill. The "fast food" mentality has taken over and now many of these people who were unwilling to do the work are now teaching. That makes for a bad situation all around.

7sm

 

[mantis]

Yes and thats one of the main problems in the CMA community. Too many people are unwilling to go to the lab, library, etc and do the hard work it takes to really gain the skill. The "fast food" mentality has taken over and now many of these people who were unwilling to do the work are now teaching. That makes for a bad situation all around.

7sm

that's why i was asking the stupid question of "how long would that take". i wish i could practice outside of school, but i just do not have time at all. I watch KF movies though, so that counts towards my lab hours

I personally tend to think if i cannot have time now to practice then i'll practice when i get to the next belt and so on. This is a terribly bad habit. I always end up piling things up and never get the chance to work on them.

 

[AceHBK]

that's why i was asking the stupid question of "how long would that take". i wish i could practice outside of school, but i just do not have time at all. I watch KF movies though, so that counts towards my lab hours

Same here!! I know it has to count for something.
I just saw the Jet Li movie Fearless. I can't stop watching it!!!!

I also spend a lot of time reading on the net and going to google video to see different clips.
To me it is a lifetime commitment and free time is spent studying. Now if I could find a way to train with someone as serious as I am or find a school that is really serious.

I personally tend to think if i cannot have time now to practice then i'll practice when i get to the next belt and so on. This is a terribly bad habit. I always end up piling things up and never get the chance to work on them.

I think this happens to many of us, your not alone.

Reading this thread I wish I was close to some of you guys b/c it is really a pleasure to see others have the same amount of passion about the art and want to do more with it and are serious with it.