Are 99% of CMA's crap?

[AceHBK]

THIS IS NOT A FLAME!!!

LOL..now, 7* made the comment that most CMA is crap. Do you agree or disagree. I am not jumping on 7* b/c I thnk after reading some of his posts that he does have a valid point. Most people stand behind their art 100% but without even considering the bad things about their art. They defend it blindly without realizing what it lacks.

What do you feel about CMA's and what is it lacking? Do you feel that instructors, students, etc has turned it into more of a show than a useful fighting art? Maybe the westernization of it had detoriated much of it?
What do you think the CMA community needs to work on?

Thanks to 7* for making that comment which in turn made me think alot and stop following so blindly as I use too.

 

[Flying Crane]

Like all arts, many people do it poorly and it is crap.

Like all arts, those who do it well are fierce and not to be trifled with.

Like all arts, probably there are more who do it poorly, and fewer who do it well.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think that there are more practitioners believing they can become invincible warriors without hard sparring or anything, becasue that's what the kung fu movie told them they could then anything else.

I think that there are a good number of instructors that realise the best way to keep the doors open is to feed that wish.

99% might be a bit of a overstatement though, but a lot of the martial arts being practiced in general make some really nutty claims about what they do.

I think that after a generation or two that's what you get...

 

[yipman_sifu]

THIS IS NOT A FLAME!!!

LOL..now, 7* made the comment that most CMA is crap. Do you agree or disagree. I am not jumping on 7* b/c I thnk after reading some of his posts that he does have a valid point. Most people stand behind their art 100% but without even considering the bad things about their art. They defend it blindly without realizing what it lacks.

What do you feel about CMA's and what is it lacking? Do you feel that instructors, students, etc has turned it into more of a show than a useful fighting art? Maybe the westernization of it had detoriated much of it?
What do you think the CMA community needs to work on?

Thanks to 7* for making that comment which in turn made me think alot and stop following so blindly as I use too.

The Chinese government prohibited all the culture stuff including Martial arts during the Mao era. After culture was brought back, Wushu was back as a show stuff. The effectivness went away for the sake of the beauty. 7* made this comment because he saw how other arts defeated CMA. Come on now friends. We only see silly examples performing CMA against other arts sponsoring the video we are watching. Do you expect that those other Martial arts schools will show how they lose. No way. CMA never lacked techniques, it is the deepest and the richest in concepts and application. The problem is in the Chinese community, let me tell you this.

Last year I was in HK. I wanted to visit any shop selling martial arts stuff. It appeared to me that no one knows where shops selling these stuff are located. I was stunned and realized that people cares only cares about their living and not caring about this heritage. After asking many people and searching. I found a shop located inside an old building with dirty steps and an old elevator. When I reached the floor I was amazed again. There was a small room condensed with stuffs and catalogs. All the showed stuff are cheap and of bad quality, above that they were proud of sponsoring tickets for attending K1 matches!!!!.What the hell is this?. Do you beleive that CMA will be excellent if it's people the Chinese are not taking the minimum care of it, above that they sponsor tickets for MMA competitons which contradicts with the CMA values that states "fight only if neccessary".
If you go to Japan. You will realize how Karate and Judo schools are well organized and how they are selling expensive Katanas with quality.

In Beijing. I asked the hotel lady about a martial arts shop. Upon searching she could find a single shop located in a shopping mall, can you beleive this!, in Beijing one shop .
I beleive that Chinese are more concerned about business and economy, martial arts became a source of entertainment for tourists who claps for flips and showy demonstrations. In the Three Kingdoms era. 90% of the commom folk were excellent fighters, not good, excellent. The prove comes as general Zhang Fei was a butcher who owned a farm, and Sun Jian was a merchant's son. Those were excellent fighters although they hadn't that much training, so what about real fighters at that time like Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, and of course Lu Bu:supcool:, just imagine who legendary they were .

 

[The MMA kid!]

In the Three Kingdoms era. 90% of the commom folk were excellent fighters, not good, excellent.

I have had my fill of ridiculous statistics for one day...

As I said before, many will argue to death that in style vs. style, "it is the fighter that makes the win in the fight, not the art"

but try this on for size, why is it that the same Martial arts consistently dominate others throughout time? surely something more than "the fighter" is making a difference here.

why haven't we seen many CMAist in the UFC/Pride/K1 arenas?

you may answer, "it was not meant for prize fighting, it was only meant for self defense"

does this mean that CMA was created only to subdue unskilled/untrained attackers??

 

[AceHBK]

why haven't we seen many CMAist in the UFC/Pride/K1 arenas?

I will say as many others, rules of course. Those events are geared more towards the grappler/wrestler.

I see the point you are trying to make but you have to admit with rules things change.

If you try to use this argument then I shoulda be able to say that if u put a MMA in a boxing ring with a boxer then they should be able to hold their own and win. Obviously you would disagree with that statement b/c of....rules.

 

[7starmantis]

THIS IS NOT A FLAME!!!

LOL..now, 7* made the comment that most CMA is crap. Do you agree or disagree. I am not jumping on 7* b/c I thnk after reading some of his posts that he does have a valid point. Most people stand behind their art 100% but without even considering the bad things about their art. They defend it blindly without realizing what it lacks.

What do you feel about CMA's and what is it lacking? Do you feel that instructors, students, etc has turned it into more of a show than a useful fighting art? Maybe the westernization of it had detoriated much of it?
What do you think the CMA community needs to work on?

Thanks to 7* for making that comment which in turn made me think alot and stop following so blindly as I use too.

lol I understand this is not a flame, no problem. Let me clarify my position here. I dont neccessarily think most CMA systems are crap, but that those teaching them and many who study them are just either crazy, or miserably mislead.

Now, as to your questions, I'll offer my own personal opinions.

1.) I think what is lacking is serious skilled teachers. Next to that is people willing to do what it takes to become truly skilled in CMA, which I think leads to unskilled, mislead teachers. Next is serious motives for studying CMA. Too many people watch jackie and want to learn to move like him. Too many people watch old kung fu movies and are unable to distinguish between truth and make believe. These people then come into the kung fu school and want to learn the "secrets" to flying around shooting lighting balls and dont want to train. Next you have those who train hard, practice on their own, who are sriously seeking to be skilled practitioners but are just mislead by either the same type of people teaching them or by simply not knowing what is worth training and what is not. Finding seriusly skilled CMA teachers who understand more than surface movements and have the skill to apply these principles to fighting and can and will actually teach that is a rare thing.

2.) I think the "westernization" of it actually did help to spread this issue, but we can't blame that and expect a change. I think the "westernized" students are the major contributors. Then these "students" become "teachers"...yikes.

3.) I think the CMA community needs to put aside their massive egos, swallow their obese pride complexes and start training. I have no problem with people learning CMA forms and such but they shouldn't pass themselves off as fighters. I think years back these false fighters would have been exposed but in today's society its easy for someone to claim skill and never prove it. Thats ok though, it makes my training that much more effective and real. Its just sad that so many people are mislead by these teachers and schools. Too many people are overconcerned with lineage and the transcription of ancient transcripts to get out and train hard. Too many people are unwilling to go through the pain, sweat, tears, and blood it takes.....way too few. And on that note, way too few are patient enough to spend the time it takes to really understand nad learn things. It takes years to be a competent fighter, you can't shorten it to months and expect to have the same grasp of the concepts and principles.

Ok, off my soapbox now....

7sm

 

[Flying Crane]

why haven't we seen many CMAist in the UFC/Pride/K1 arenas?

Probably for many reasons. We can only speculate. But if someone doesnt show up for a fight/competition of some type, they cannot be judged in either a positive or negative way, with regard to that tournament. They didn't show up, and didn't show their stuff, that is ALL we know.

Maybe they were scared, maybe they can't fight, or maybe they just aren't interested in the competition and don't see the point. Maybe they feel the best way to win a fight is to not be there when the fight happens. But we cannot judge that based only on the fact that they didn't show up for a tournament.

The winner of a tournament is only the best out of those who bothered to show up that day. Agaist those who did not show up, he cannot be judged as better or worse. It is pure speculation. Outside the doors of the competition, it means nothing.

World Championship titles are nonsense, because the winner didn't compete against the world. He only competed against, and bested, those who showed up that day. Let's keep it in perspective, and abandon the rediculous fantasy that the UFC/Pride/K1 stuff is the only measure of a competent fighter.

 

[AceHBK]

Probably for many reasons. We can only speculate. But if someone doesnt show up for a fight/competition of some type, they cannot be judged in either a positive or negative way, with regard to that tournament. They didn't show up, and didn't show their stuff, that is ALL we know.

Maybe they were scared, maybe they can't fight, or maybe they just aren't interested in the competition and don't see the point. Maybe they feel the best way to win a fight is to not be there when the fight happens. But we cannot judge that based only on the fact that they didn't show up for a tournament.

The winner of a tournament is only the best out of those who bothered to show up that day. Agaist those who did not show up, he cannot be judged as better or worse. It is pure speculation. Outside the doors of the competition, it means nothing.

World Championship titles are nonsense, because the winner didn't compete against the world. He only competed against, and bested, those who showed up that day. Let's keep it in perspective, and abandon the rediculous fantasy that the UFC/Pride/K1 stuff is the only measure of a competent fighter.

Couldnt have said it any better.

 

[Andrew Green]

In the Three Kingdoms era. 90% of the commom folk were excellent fighters, not good, excellent. The prove comes as general Zhang Fei was a butcher who owned a farm, and Sun Jian was a merchant's son. Those were excellent fighters although they hadn't that much training, so what about real fighters at that time like Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, and of course Lu Bu:supcool:, just imagine who legendary they were .

Legends and oral history are not reliable sources of information. Nor are two examples representative of the entire population at that time...

 

[The MMA kid!]

my point exactly...

 

[mantis]

to the original question...
it's not lacking anything!
it is just lacking someone with a western mindset to go challenge bullies with it so it becomes popular in the west.

we're talking about a martial art that was born more than a thousand years ago. it's been through wars, and it's been through demonstrations.
in fact, CMA's are taught to special forces in more than one country including germany's anti-terrorism police (specifically wing chun)
i dont think it's smart to argue that it's 99% worthless. that just doesnt make sense about any system, not only CMA's.

why dont we see it in UFC? that's a funny question. why would you want to see a traditional self defense or a fighting art in there?! that's like against everything asian cultures stand for, where CMA comes from.

Besides, do not judge ANYTHING in this world just because you see it, or not see it on TV. There's a whole load of things you guys have no idea about outside this country!

 

[dmax999]

why dont we see it in UFC? that's a funny question. why would you want to see a traditional self defense or a fighting art in there?! that's like against everything asian cultures stand for, where CMA comes from.

I'll have to disagree with this point. All the really good CMA teachers always went around fighting anyone they could. Countless stories of them starting fight after fight in their youth for no reason other then to fight.

As for one MA always dominating, which one was being refered to? Not a single MA dominates MMA contests today (Hence the [Mixed]MA). Go back twenty years and not a single grappling art dominated MA contests in the US.

 

[7starmantis]

I'll have to disagree with this point. All the really good CMA teachers always went around fighting anyone they could. Countless stories of them starting fight after fight in their youth for no reason other then to fight.

Thats misinformation really. "really good CMA teachers" is a very subjective term.

As for one MA always dominating, which one was being refered to? Not a single MA dominates MMA contests today (Hence the [Mixed]MA). Go back twenty years and not a single grappling art dominated MA contests in the US.

Your still talking contests not pure self defense which is what "most" CMAs are about.

7sm

 

[The MMA kid!]

I'll have to disagree with this point. All the really good CMA teachers always went around fighting anyone they could. Countless stories of them starting fight after fight in their youth for no reason other then to fight.

As for one MA always dominating, which one was being refered to? Not a single MA dominates MMA contests today (Hence the [Mixed]MA). Go back twenty years and not a single grappling art dominated MA contests in the US.

what main arts are usually mixed?

western boxing
Thai boxing
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

no Wushu,
no Wing Chun,
no Mantis kung fu.

why? why not mix Wing chun with grappling and go into the MMA ring?

please don't go into the "rules" debate on how things that a Wing chun master would do to a grappler. elbows to the spine? I don't think so.

and how does UFC/Pride favor grapplers? becuase it allows grappling maybe???:idunno:

okay, let's say it does favor the grappler, then why don't we see CMA in K1 events?
IMHO, San Shou is the most fight applicable CMA there is.

 

[The MMA kid!]

adressing the "mostly for self defense" argument, does this mean that CMA is only for defending yourself against an untrained/unskilled attacker??

usually, if someone is a bully, they are going to be pretty confident in their fighting skill, not everyone throws a sloppy haymaker...

 

[Tony]

Its not the Art, but how skilled the individual is! I think there are useful techniques in every art, no matter where it comes from! Some things may not work but because of our syllabuses we have to learn them and get an all rounded knowledge of concepts.

I guess it depends how you apply what you have learnt and know what will and won't work.

 

[7starmantis]

what main arts are usually mixed?

western boxing
Thai boxing
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

no Wushu,
no Wing Chun,
no Mantis kung fu.

why? why not mix Wing chun with grappling and go into the MMA ring?

Who knows, but if "the ring" is your ultimate test of an effective self defense system I think you are missing a big piece of the puzzle.

please don't go into the "rules" debate on how things that a Wing chun master would do to a grappler. elbows to the spine? I don't think so.

Well, I agree with you for the most part, but if elbows to the spine were so nonimportant why does the UFC forbid them?

Fouls:http://www.ufc.tv/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules#top
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Those rules certainly desribe a sport and not a true self defense fighting situation. I think its a big problem that people see UFC type MMA events and can't distinguish between sport and real life....kind of like the people who watch kung fu movies and can't distinguish truth from make believe.

and how does UFC/Pride favor grapplers? becuase it allows grappling maybe???:idunno:

See rules listed above.

okay, let's say it does favor the grappler, then why don't we see CMA in K1 events?
IMHO, San Shou is the most fight applicable CMA there is.

The fact that we dont see CMA fighters in K1 proves to you CMA's are not effective? Thats a huge assumption to make, but your welcome to it.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

adressing the "mostly for self defense" argument, does this mean that CMA is only for defending yourself against an untrained/unskilled attacker??

usually, if someone is a bully, they are going to be pretty confident in their fighting skill, not everyone throws a sloppy haymaker...

Not at all. It simply means the fighting isn't geared towards good sportsmanship and allowing figihters to have long illustrius careers. Its a fight for your life if you must fight, those types of situations are not condusive to continued career fighting. Also, your assuming that all self defense situations are against untrained/unskilled attackers. This was certainly not the case when many of these CMA systems were created and developed. Mantis for one was designed specifically to comabt those who are skilled fighters. Its basically a difference in intent. My intent if I have to fight is to make my attacker unable to continue threatening me as quickly as possible by whatever means needed. Thats not sport, thats fighting for your life and training for that is different than training for sport fighting. I actually compete in MMA events from time to time, not many lately and probably not many more at all, but its hard to train to "flip the switch" of trying to kill someone for attacking you and trying to win a victory over someone that might even go to the judges for a decision. Small joint manipulation and groin attacks are a huge part of my fighting, how good will I be if I avoid those and try to fight someone who trains specifically for that rule set?

In our training a "sloppy haymaker" is almost harder to defend against sometimes than a precise jab or cross.

7sm

 

[Henderson]

Let's keep it in perspective, and abandon the rediculous fantasy that the UFC/Pride/K1 stuff is the only measure of a competent fighter.

Thanks, Crane! Couldn't have said it better myself.