Any suggestions for Iron Palm / Iron Bone training?

[KennethKu]

I just bought a bottle of 91% isopropyl rubbing alcohol from K Mart. What gives?

 

[chufeng]

Good question....

I work in a hospital...the isopropyl alcohol that is used to decontaminate skin is 70%...

A higher % solution would be fine for a solvent OR for disinfecting surfaces of inanimate objects...

When I buy isopropyl alcohol at the drug store, I check the label and it is 70%...why K-mart is selling a higher strength is beyond me...the old "if 70% is good, 90% must be better" mentality.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Kenneth,

I am including excerpts from an article in Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology...July 2000:

Alcohol has been used as an antiseptic since ancient times. However, the first systematic in vitro studies of the germicidal activity of ethyl alcohol against pure cultures of bacteria were performed by Koch in the early 1880s.1 In the 1890s and early 1900s, alcohol was proposed for use as a skin antiseptic.1 Early investigators discovered that alcohols must be diluted with water for maximal antimicrobial activity and that preparations containing 50% to 70% alcohol were more effective than 95% alcohol.1,2 In 1922, studies in Germany demonstrated the efficacy of an isopropyl alcohol hand rub in reducing bacterial counts on contaminated hands.3 In 1935, isopropyl alcohol was added to the American Medical Association Council on Pharmacy and Chemistry’s list of new and nonofficial remedies, and disinfection of the skin was listed as one of its recommended uses.4 Using more quantitative methods, Price showed in the late 1930s that 65.5% alcohol was effective in reducing the number of bacteria on the skin.1 He subsequently recommended the use of a 3-minute wash with 70% alcohol as a preoperative hand scrub and that 70% alcohol should be used for disinfecting contaminated hands…1
…The bactericidal activity of alcohols is most likely due to their ability to denature proteins.22 Alcohols are effective against most vegetative gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. A few studies suggest that alcohol-containing products may have greater activity than antiseptic detergents against multidrug-resistant pathogens such as vancomycin-resistant enterococci and methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, but additional evidence on this issue is needed.23-25 Alcohols have excellent activity against Mycobacterium tuberculosis, but are not active against bacterial spores. They do have activity against many fungi and a variety of viruses, including hepatitis B, human immuno-deficiency virus, enteroviruses, adenovirus, rotaviruses, and herpes simplex virus.22 Ethyl alcohol is more active than isopropyl alcohol against many viruses, except those with a lipid envelope…

The reason a 70% solution is more effective is because the higher concentration does not allow for penetration of the skin...it burns the skin by denaturing it.
This editorial article was written by John M. Boyce, MD

Hope this helps.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Phil Elmore]

The bag is made of canvas. The canvous is porous. Your skin can and does absorb certain things directly through itself, as it is also porous.

I'm not saying you're going to get any measurable benefit from it, but it does occur.

 

[chufeng]

Phil,

Certainly you will get powder on your hands...and it will stick because of the dit-da-jow...but the proteins need a way to cross the formidible barrier of the skin...

I'm not trying to bi-otch slap you, just sharing a little physiology and chemistry...and as I said earlier, Master Lee developed a tremendous iron palm without slapping anything.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Something that I always wondered about was why karateka never seem overly concerned with using medicinal preparations after smacking the hell out of a makiwara, and CMAists are big on the whole dit da jow thing...

I admit that the jow we use in Yiliquan will fix up damn near any hurtin' you have going on (used it in basic training on my feet before and after our first 12 mile road march - the next day, I was the only one capable of moving about with anything resembling briskness! Everyone else was near incapacitated!), and our iron palm training is impressive in its effects, but...

I spent the last three years backfisting and punching the concrete walls in the office building I worked in. I managed to rack up around 300 - 500 strikes a day walking back and forth (I could get 50 in walking one way down the hall, and another 50 returning to my office, so with just a few trips I was really making progress!).

I started gradually, nothing more than a strong knock. By the end of the three years, I was smacking it pretty firmly! While I know that striking an immobile object is actually somewhat detrimental, at the same time my purpose was to simply "temper" my striking surfaces.

I didn't really use jow much at all, and never had any ill effects. While my main two striking knuckles are very slightly enlarged, my hands look just fine.

I still want to do regular iron palm training, though...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Yiliquan1,

Striking with the knuckles (especially in a gradually increasing way) is not the same as iron palm training...the shock generated in an iron palm strike is like a wave of energy...much of that energy is dissipated in the substance you strike (that's why we don't slap solid objects) and some of it reenters your striking hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc...that's why we move up to it gradually...your hitting the wall is nothing more than callous building, completely different type of training.

We can talk more about this on Saturday...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Phil Elmore]

The skin may be a "tremendous barrier," but the endless selection of topical rubs available in drugstores seem to indicate that it isn't the Great Wall of China.

 

[KennethKu]

Thanks for the excerpts, Chufeng.

That explains a lot. The denaturalization of protein is in reference to what happens when bacteria/virus are killed by alcohol. Just rubbing a =>70% Isopropyl alcohol on human skin would not cause the protein in your body to denature. Otherwise you would have a major outbreak of tissue damage among K Mart's customers.

When I was experimenting on transdermal formular, I have rubbed 99% isopropyl on my skin before. It dries in nano seconds. I have rubbed 95% ethyl alcohol (EverClear) on my skin and have drunk it too (as have millions of others). Alcohol is partially absorbed through the mucous membrane, eg lining of your oral cavity. The scrotal skin is quite permeable though. It is not absorbed through the other skin. Contrary to general perception, alcohol does not carry any ingredients through your skin. Its purpose is as a solvent for those ingredients. It only deposits them across your skin. They will gradually permeate through your skin, depending on their molecular size. You can't just dissolve anything in alcohol and assume that it will permeate through the skin. There are some chemicals that would permeate
the skin and carry other chemicals through with them (provided that the molecular size of those chemicals is small enough.)

In short, the alcohol acts as a solvent for the chemicals. The permeability of the chemicals is a function of their molecular size.

(I hope I have not put anyone to sleep)

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
Yiliquan1,

Striking with the knuckles (especially in a gradually increasing way) is not the same as iron palm training...the shock generated in an iron palm strike is like a wave of energy...much of that energy is dissipated in the substance you strike (that's why we don't slap solid objects) and some of it reenters your striking hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc...that's why we move up to it gradually...your hitting the wall is nothing more than callous building, completely different type of training.

We can talk more about this on Saturday...

:asian:
chufeng

Yes. The slapping motion generates shock vibration. With slapping, it is easier to break "crispy" materials that do not flex than to break "flexible" materials (boards) that do flex.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Something that I always wondered about was why karateka never seem overly concerned with using medicinal preparations after smacking the hell out of a makiwara, and CMAists are big on the whole dit da jow thing...

I admit that the jow we use in Yiliquan will fix up damn near any hurtin' you have going on (used it in basic training on my feet before and after our first 12 mile road march - the next day, I was the only one capable of moving about with anything resembling briskness! Everyone else was near incapacitated!), and our iron palm training is impressive in its effects, but...

I spent the last three years backfisting and punching the concrete walls in the office building I worked in. I managed to rack up around 300 - 500 strikes a day walking back and forth (I could get 50 in walking one way down the hall, and another 50 returning to my office, so with just a few trips I was really making progress!).

I started gradually, nothing more than a strong knock. By the end of the three years, I was smacking it pretty firmly! While I know that striking an immobile object is actually somewhat detrimental, at the same time my purpose was to simply "temper" my striking surfaces.

I didn't really use jow much at all, and never had any ill effects. While my main two striking knuckles are very slightly enlarged, my hands look just fine.

I still want to do regular iron palm training, though...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

By conventional wisdom, you would need someone to wipe your *** for you everyday now. Your hands would have already turned into a pair of useless clubs. So much for conventional wisdom.

Question: Do you know what effects the Yiliquan jow (or any other dit da jow) has? I have a suspicion that dit da jow is mostly a topical anagelsic. Looking at the common ingredients. There are camphor, menthol and may be metyl salycilate (sp), among a list of herbal ingredients. The first 3 ingredients are commonly used in topical anagelsic. (BTW, K Mart has its own brand of topical anagelsic with that 3 ingredients) A lot of the time, people equate no pain to no damage. It does not make sense that there are chemicals that can protect your tissue (muscle & tendon) from wear and tear trauma induced by rigorous activities. If you slam your fist against a brick wall, your knuckles are going to bruise. There is no jow or chemicals that can prevent that.

Many people recommend using jow BEFORE the session. I think that is a bad practice. You need pain as a feedback mechanism, so as not to severely injure yourself. If people wreck their hands in Iron palm training, I believe it can be attributed to their use of an anagelsic before the session. With their hands numbed, they would proceed to inflict permanent tissue, tendon and bone damage, over an extended period of time. Personally I found that it is impossible to wreck your hands to permanent injury. Long before that sets in, your hands would be hurting like hell and you would be forced to stop and wait for them to heal. That would automatically prevent permanent damage to occur. Thus, I theorize that the use of an anagelsic before a session, is a problematic practice.

 

[chufeng]

Ken,

Our jow is something we make ourselves...it is a recipe that Master Chen Wing Chou passed on to Sifu Phillip Starr...

It does not have camphor, menthol, or methyl salycilate...

It is not an analgesic...

It includes a base set of 12 herbs...some people have added one or two additional herbs to it...we prepare it in ethyl alcohol, 50%...
It sits in a cool and dark place for at least six weeks before it is ready for use...it does stink.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Thanks for the info, Chufeng.

It would be an interesting project to perform chemical analysis to identify the specific therapeutic qualities of each of the herbs. If I won the lottery I would sponsor a project to analyze all the herbal ingredients used in alternative medicine. (It would have to be a really huge jackpot.)

 

[chufeng]

Ken,

The argument about putting 95% alcohol on your skin and having it evaporate may explain ONE of the reasons that high concentration alcohol is ineffective...but, that concentration DOES denature proteins...do you think it differentiates human from non human?...the corneal layers of the epidermis are denatured, therefore the alcohol never reaches the deeper layers of the skin...hence, it is a lousy antimicrobial for decontaminating the skin...

The fact is, many things dissolve in alcohol (bacause they are lipid based) and are then made available to the tissues...

Drinking high concentration grain alcohol isn't very bright...nor is putting it on your scrotum...

Most folks who use "everclear" mix it in something...they don't do shots (at least, not for very long)

Thanks for your feedback...

:asian:
chufeng

PS, I don't want this thread to turn into "Who's the best chemist," so, I've had my say, if you want to respond, fine...but let's keep this thread on target.

 

[yilisifu]

The jow doesn't do much for pain at all. The recommended practice is to use it before and after practice.

Measuring pain to indicate when one should slow down or stop the training temporarily is not a good method. Damage can be done without pain being very severe at all. Sometimes, you feel fine until you do the technique wrong and then you end up with a semi-permanent injury. So please don't use pain as a barometer of when you should slow down.

Karateists DID used to use medicines like this. They are actually old Chinese recipes. Sadly, that practice has not been continued into the modern era for the most part - but old Okinawan writings speak of it. Some even have the actual recipes.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
Ken,

The argument about putting 95% alcohol on your skin and having it evaporate may explain ONE of the reasons that high concentration alcohol is ineffective...but, that concentration DOES denature proteins...do you think it differentiates human from non human?...the corneal layers of the epidermis are denatured, therefore the alcohol never reaches the deeper layers of the skin...hence, it is a lousy antimicrobial for decontaminating the skin...

The fact is, many things dissolve in alcohol (bacause they are lipid based) and are then made available to the tissues...

Drinking high concentration grain alcohol isn't very bright...nor is putting it on your scrotum...

Most folks who use "everclear" mix it in something...they don't do shots (at least, not for very long)

Thanks for your feedback...

:asian:
chufeng

PS, I don't want this thread to turn into "Who's the best chemist," so, I've had my say, if you want to respond, fine...but let's keep this thread on target.

Of course this isn't about who is the better chemist.

It is true that high concentration such as > 90% would result in rapid evaporation and lower effectiveness in antiseptic function.

I should have clarified in stating that the reason alcohol does not cause denaturalization of protein in human, is because it does not permeate into the tissue for denaturalization to occur. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

LOL the scrotal application was in reference to maximizing the efficiency of transdermal delivery of chemicals/medicine. An offhand remark.

Anyhow, getting back to the subject, using ethyl alcohol as the solvent for your Yili Jow is an ideal choice. In our transdermal delivery research, ethyl alcohol is the least agitating solvent.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu
The jow doesn't do much for pain at all. The recommended practice is to use it before and after practice.

Measuring pain to indicate when one should slow down or stop the training temporarily is not a good method. Damage can be done without pain being very severe at all. Sometimes, you feel fine until you do the technique wrong and then you end up with a semi-permanent injury. So please don't use pain as a barometer of when you should slow down.

Karateists DID used to use medicines like this. They are actually old Chinese recipes. Sadly, that practice has not been continued into the modern era for the most part - but old Okinawan writings speak of it. Some even have the actual recipes.

It is true that pain alone is not the end all be all indicator of the degree of muscle/tendon injury. Certain injury can occur and pain is felt only when the degree of injury become critical. For example, in bodybuilding training, even when the soreness has subsided, you still need to give the body enough time to repair the tissue. Some people would just return to exerting the muscle as soon as they feel fine. That is detrimental to muscle growth and in severe cases, result in muscle torn.

However, in my previous post, I was referring to Iron Palm/hand/fist training/conditioning. In such conditioning, pain is a rather sensitive and effective feedback. You simply cannot continue to punish your fists when they hurt. I don't see how someone can claim to punch until the knuckle bones crack or the tendon got pushed aside. That is ludiculous. You would be screaming and swearing like a drunken sailor!

Jow recipes are a dime a dozen. We have heard claims of jow's functions. I would like to read some documented research on its therapeutic effect. This is not a dimissive attitude. Rather, I would love to be able to examine the science behind the claims.

 

[chufeng]

Ken,

When I studied TaeKwonDo (I hate to admit it, but I was in a martial arts desert at the time it was long before my Chinese MA experience) I was told to hit the Korean version of the makiwara...the teacher had afixed a rope-wrapped piece of wood to on of the supporting posts for a wall (no give)...after ten solid punches, I had, in fact, split the skin and tendon over my knuckle...I showed the teacher; he was very happy, "That will make an awesome callous...go hit it some more" So, I hit it some more...fact is, it didn't hurt much...traumatic anesthesia...It hurt like crazy the next day, though (and I did NOT hit the makiwara at the next training session).

When I cut my forearm, accidently, I was in the first 70 or so days of iron-palm training...I didn't wan't to start over so I continued to practice and train...every slap on the bag really hurt...every block I did with that arm, during regular class, was excruciating...but I did it anyways...people can overcome the body's instinct to avoid painful stimuli...

The first example showed stupidity on my teacher's part for not understanding real makiwara training and stupidity on my part for hitting the darn thing after I injured myself...

The second example had no lasting ill effects...some might call it stupid...however, I used overcoming the pain as another training tool.

Regards...
chufeng:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Actually, authentic jow recipes are not so common...emphasis, authentic...

I'd be happy to send you a list of our ingredients...you can mix a batch and analyze what's actually in it at the molecular level...

The claims that Master Chen made were that the jow increased protective and healing qi to the areas it was used on...he also said it helped prevent blood clots from forming...

How do you prove the first two claims scientifically?

But, if you're serious about looking at what is actually in the solution, I'm willing to help you by providing our ingredients list.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

Just don't drink it.....