Any suggestions for Iron Palm / Iron Bone training?

[zen_hydra]

I have recently added Iron Palm / Iron Bone training to my martial arts regiment, and I am curious about what forms of exercise those of you who have experience with this training have done. I won't go into the number of reps for each exercise, but what I currently do includes fingertip pushups, fingertip striking to gravel, wooden post striking with various hand, foot, and forearm points, grasping and catching heavy bag of gravel, rolling a 40+ lb iron bar down the inflexed shins and forearms, uses 40+ lb as training weight for hand / wrist / arm curls and sit-ups, and medicine ball training. So if anyone can add some additional ideas it would be very much appreciated.

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

We do the same at our school, but you have to keep up the training on a regular basis.

 

[ECYili]

From what I know of there of 2 main styles of iron palm training. There is the external style which is alot like what you were expalining and there's the internal which mainly does alot of chi gong a small amount physical exersices.

In the style I practice we combine the both. They way our iron palm is set up is in 3-100 day stages, the third really never ends. The first stage has most of the physical conditioning. Finger tip push up, various wrist strengthening exersices, finger extenions, slap bag, candle training, finger tip thrusts, makiwara training, qi gong and grip exercises. I might have forgotten one or two. I have never made it to the second and third stages but from what I know they get into more qi gong, striking exercises, some more conditioning. Maybe one of my more senior brothers that have gone through it will jump on and explain it in more indepth.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Dan

 

[zen_hydra]

We too have internal aspects and forms in our Iron Palm / Bone / Shirt development. We also practice qi gong, but separately from these exercises. I am mostly just interested in specific external exercises that various schools use for Iron training.

 

[chufeng]

Are you using any dit da jow?

You really should use this before and after iron palm training...
Also, qigong immediately after is good, too...

If you don't know what you're doing (that is, you don't have someone to guide you through the process), you can hurt yourself .

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by zen_hydra
I have recently added Iron Palm / Iron Bone training to my martial arts regiment, and I am curious about what forms of exercise those of you who have experience with this training have done. I won't go into the number of reps for each exercise, but what I currently do includes fingertip pushups, fingertip striking to gravel, wooden post striking with various hand, foot, and forearm points, grasping and catching heavy bag of gravel, rolling a 40+ lb iron bar down the inflexed shins and forearms, uses 40+ lb as training weight for hand / wrist / arm curls and sit-ups, and medicine ball training. So if anyone can add some additional ideas it would be very much appreciated.

What do you use to aid in recovery?

I researched this area before I started my Iron Fist training (conditioning, to be more precise). The key is the recovery. There is no secret in pounding sand or gravel or makiwara or iron dust. But what you do to stimulate the recovery of the damaged tissue and the joints, would dictate progress as well as success of your endeavour.

 

[zen_hydra]

Yes, I use dit da jow. It consists of two different topical medicines used concurrently. It works, but man does it smell.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Simple Iron Palm Drill using Immortal Single Section Wall Bag (filled with mung bean)

 

[KennethKu]

I have heard about using mung beans in the training bag. However, I am curious if anyone has gotten any result training using them. It just seems too soft. I use gravel rocks in a 50 lb bag. I also disagree with the advice about not to strike with force. That defeats the purpose.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Depends on what you think the purpose is. If you want to turn your hands into knobby, useless hand-like things, hit a bag of gravel as hard as you like. Proper conditioning while maintaining healthy hands takes time.

 

[chufeng]

You are not just training the hand...
The strike involves the entire body...

If you "slam" your hand into/onto the gravel, you may sustain injury that is not apparent and shows itself after it is too late.

If you "slam" your hand into anything, chances are you are developing tension in parts of the body that should remain relaxed for the real strike to develop...

Eventually, with proper training, you will be able to hit things hard, very hard...but, you can't start there.

Master Arthur Lee (FutGaKun) had one heck of an iron palm and he slapped the air...never used the bag of beans, bucket of rice, or anything else...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

I agree. Real iron palm training does not emphasize striking forcefully with the hand. The blows are made in a relaxed manner because the entire body is being trained (as well as the mind). It is a complex process that takes time and cannot be hurried. Trying to hurry or using brute force with the hand usually results in injuries or even illnesses (which can result due to trauma to acupuncture channels and points on the hands).

It is crucial to practice chigong following the practice and to apply the proper medicine BEFORE and AFTER. Some of the medicines people use are what are referred to as "bruise" medicine and are not really helpful insofar as iron palm training goes. The traditional medicines are not usually presented openly to the public, so they remain relatively uknown.

 

[zen_hydra]

Do mung beans break down very quickly? How long (on average) would a bag filled with mung beans last before they were crushed into flour? Is there any particular property of mung beans that makes them special (as opposed to gravel or sand).

 

[Phil Elmore]

In theory the mung beans contain nutrients that enter the skin and are "good for you," though I don't know to what degree. They do turn to powder over time, but how long depends on how much you use the bag.

 

[chufeng]

The nutrient effects of mung beans are only achieved by eating them

The skin is an excellent barrier to most things penetrating through it. The reason that iron palm medicine works is that the alcohol carries the herbs through that barrier...and you can't have less than 25% or greater than 70% alcohol content in your medicine...less than 25% leaves too much water in the solution and will be repelled by the skin...greater than 70% will denature the proteins in the skin and stop the progress of the medicine...

It would take a very long time to pound the beans to powder...much longer than the 100 days of initial training that you would do...after 100 days you can graduate to a harder substance (sand, small pebbles)...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Phil Elmore]

They ain't gonna be much good as hands after pounding gravel.

 

[chufeng]

Phil,

It may seem that way, but if the training is done correctly the hands don't suffer...I did iron palm training for about 5 years, every day, (sometimes twice a day) with no ill effects...but I worked up to the harder substances gradually...I didn't "slam" my hands into the bag or the bucket (spearing techniques)...I used body action and a relaxed arm and hand...
I don't have callouses...I have full sensation...and I use fine motor skills daily at work...
...and I can hit real hard, too...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
The nutrient effects of mung beans are only achieved by eating them

The skin is an excellent barrier to most things penetrating through it. The reason that iron palm medicine works is that the alcohol carries the herbs through that barrier...and you can't have less than 25% or greater than 70% alcohol content in your medicine...less than 25% leaves too much water in the solution and will be repelled by the skin...greater than 70% will denature the proteins in the skin and stop the progress of the medicine...

It would take a very long time to pound the beans to powder...much longer than the 100 days of initial training that you would do...after 100 days you can graduate to a harder substance (sand, small pebbles)...

:asian:
chufeng

Yes. The assertion that the nutrient in the beans can enter your skin, with a layer of bag shielding the beans, is pure hog wash. Some of the myth in the MA community is really embarrassing.

1. How effective alcohol fucntions as a transdermal carrier depends on the molecular size of the substance you are trying to deliver. Not having info on that of the chemicals in the dit-da-jou (sp), I really have no idea.

2. Would you cite the reference/s that indicates >70% alcohol will denature proteins in the skin? This is the first time I have heard of such assertion. On the other hand, I am aware of transdermal permeation formular that use =>70% alcohol to deliver chemicals.

Not that the 70% criteria is important. I am just curious for academic reason.

Thanks.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
They ain't gonna be much good as hands after pounding gravel.

That is also a myth.

 

[chufeng]

Would you cite the reference/s that indicates >70% alcohol will denature proteins in the skin

My primary references for the alcohol % that denatures proteins in the skin are the lectures I received in my undergraduate program organic chemistry (Professor Leo Lim, Mount Mercy College, Cedar Rapids, IA...1984) and the lecture I received in my Master's program biochemistry (Professor Emmet Foulds, US Army Graduate Program in Anesthesia Nursing, Ft. Sam Houston, TX, 1992)...

The reason isopropyl alcohol is a 70% solution is that it is the highest concentration you can use without damaging the tissue underneath...plus if you denature the underlying dermis, you can protect the pathogens that may lie beneath the dermis. Unless you are using wood alcohol as a solvent, or grain alcohol, you would be hard pressed to find a high concentration alcohol on the market...even 151 rum is only 75%...

If you want a specific textbook reference, I'll have to go to the library... I don't have my chemistry textbooks anymore.

:asian:
chufeng