Another Reason Why We Train

[MJS]

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-affidavitsreleased-120409,0,2635245.story


I saw this link on another forum, and felt it was worth posting here for discussion. The person who posted this link is also a big advocate of CCW, and rightfully so.

Scumbags like this, IMHO, do not have any concern for the well being of their victims. Thus, the reason why I would not waste my time trying to talk my way out of something like this. In a case like this, where you're greatly outnumbered, talking is the last thing that should be done. I'm not saying that your martial arts skills are going to turn you into Superman, and maybe you will end up getting your *** kicked, but IMO, if you can't get away, and judging by the article it seems that running isn't a sure shot answer, you better be ready to fight hard, fight dirty and fight to win! This means doing anything and everything you can!

 

[Draven]

Every time they show the kid being held in a rear bear hug, I keep thinking knife hand to the groin, arms up & reverse head butt from the horse stance, drop grab the ankle pick up and sit down on the knee. Why wasn't he fighting back? It was like he was in a complete state of denial.

 

[seasoned]

Do nothing and get your *** kicked, or fight back and maybe get your *** kicked. Fighting back is something that is determined long before it is ever a reality. Looking back and saying I should have done this or I could have done that is too late after the fact. Train with intent, train hard, and if the time ever comes, you will be in a better position to determine the out come. The way we train is the way we will react when the chips are down.

 

[TKDHomeSchooler]

That sure looks like disparity of force to me, in Texas that means fair game!

 

[K-man]

And, maybe, if you do have to go through that type of area, don't move like a victim.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

And, maybe, if you do have to go through that type of area, don't move like a victim.

Find a different way through the area or maybe with some friends? There are always other options.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm familiar with those areas. Cheeseman Park in Denver is a place where homosexuals congregate at night, so victims abound. LoDo is a trendy area where wealthy young people from the suburbs party. The 16th Street Mall is a fashionable shopping area that should be safe as houses.

Denver has had a gang problem for a long time, but it wasn't huge and it wasn't targeted at wealthy whites in the past. There were some juvenile gang members convicted years ago of going to find local transients and homeless people and beating them to death. I used to live on 14th / Madison, and you could hear gunshots at night. My apartment was burglarized. However, gang-bangers never hassled me personally.

I'm really sorry to see in the video that some people walked around the attacks and did nothing at all. I'm also sorry that there were not more DPD in the area. I'm also glad to hear the news actually reporting black-on-white crime. There have been times in the past when race was only reported if the crime was white-on-black; otherwise all mention of race of the attackers or victims was left out, even if it was 'racially motivated'. I do not intend that as a racist statement, it's just an observation from growing up in the western suburbs of Denver and knowing that there was a deep-rooted fear of saying 'black' and 'criminal' in the same sentence. Denver really tried hard to not be racist - too hard, IMHO.

As to self-defense, I agree that this is one of many reasons why we train. There's no reason the victims in these cases should have avoided these areas; with the exception of Cheeseman Park at night, they're supposedly perfectly safe. Not run-down or seedy or etc. In fact, very upscale.

I also think from that one video of the man held in the bear hug and attacked by multiple gang members that even a well-trained martial artist would have had a difficult time escaping from that situation without getting seriously hurt. A case for CCW, for sure, though. However, Denver is anti-gun. The suburbs aren't so much, but Denver proper is.

Growing up in the Denver area, a lot of people in my high school had pickup trucks with rifle racks in the back windows and rifles/shotguns in them. No problem. Now, guns are viewed as the devil. A product of all the Californians who moved to Denver in the 1980's, IMHO.

 

[Guardian]

CCW is nice, but the bear hug negates that aspect of it right off the bat until you can break away to use it and hopefully they won't find that you have a weapon and all gang up on you to get it, remember, they are doing this as an upward move in the gangs, they have numbers, they find you have a weapon, they outnumber you, it's gang up time more then likely.

Fight like there is no tomorrow.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

CCW is nice, but the bear hug negates that aspect of it right off the bat until you can break away to use it and hopefully they won't find that you have a weapon and all gang up on you to get it, remember, they are doing this as an upward move in the gangs, they have numbers, they find you have a weapon, they outnumber you, it's gang up time more then likely.

Fight like there is no tomorrow.

I'm not going to armchair-quarterback the victim's choices, but note that the man putting the bear hug on him basically did it in slow motion. The victim appeared to choose not to respond as it was happening - we don't know what happened previously, perhaps he had already been assaulted and was dazed & confused. However, the assailants were many; I do not know how anyone could reasonably expect to fight their way out of that unarmed.

 

[TKDHomeSchooler]

CCW is nice, but the bear hug negates that aspect of it right off the bat until you can break away to use it and hopefully they won't find that you have a weapon and all gang up on you to get it, remember, they are doing this as an upward move in the gangs, they have numbers, they find you have a weapon, they outnumber you, it's gang up time more then likely.

Fight like there is no tomorrow.

When you are getting surrounded like this guy did, you know something is about to happen. This guy let the 3 on 1 factor cloud common sense.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

It upsets me, too, that people walked past and did nothing. To me, the shame of doing nothing would be worse than getting beat up. I'm a woman and just a beginner MA but I would have stopped and said something, or at least called the cops on my cell phone.

 

[MattNinjaZX-14]

That is sick. I hope they get the electric chair. Gangs should be considered as using deadly force and weapons in large numbers.

The " weapons " being human mass in large numbers.

There was a good reason why in the 19th century black people were not allowed to congregate in large numbers. This is exactly why.

I am no raicst here like Bill Mattocks said. " I do not intend that as a racist statement, it's just an observation from growing up in the western suburbs of Denver and knowing that there was a deep-rooted fear of saying 'black' and 'criminal' in the same sentence. Denver really tried hard to not be racist - too hard, IMHO. "

I hope you get it. Time to take back America from the street gangs IMHO.

 

[celtic_crippler]

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-affidavitsreleased-120409,0,2635245.story


I saw this link on another forum, and felt it was worth posting here for discussion. The person who posted this link is also a big advocate of CCW, and rightfully so.

Scumbags like this, IMHO, do not have any concern for the well being of their victims. Thus, the reason why I would not waste my time trying to talk my way out of something like this. In a case like this, where you're greatly outnumbered, talking is the last thing that should be done. I'm not saying that your martial arts skills are going to turn you into Superman, and maybe you will end up getting your *** kicked, but IMO, if you can't get away, and judging by the article it seems that running isn't a sure shot answer, you better be ready to fight hard, fight dirty and fight to win! This means doing anything and everything you can!

You better be willing to seriously injure and kill.

If you're greatly outnumbered and have no escape then your first strike better count; sword hands to throats, kicks to knees, etc...

You can't just count on simple punches and kicks in these scenarios. Being outnumbered is no different than an opponent using deadly force (gun, knife, ect)

If you only rely on general martial arts you're probably going to get overwhelmed and the guy you punched is just going to beat you that much harder for it. So, you better make sure he doesn't get back up.

Hopefully your pure aggression and disregard for their bodies will result in "shock & awe" and perhaps provide you with an opportunity to escape.

You have to be nasty if you want to survive. IMHO

 

[MJS]

Every time they show the kid being held in a rear bear hug, I keep thinking knife hand to the groin, arms up & reverse head butt from the horse stance, drop grab the ankle pick up and sit down on the knee. Why wasn't he fighting back? It was like he was in a complete state of denial.

I havent seen the entire clip yet, but looking at the still shot, I was wondering the same thing...why was he just standing there, doing nothing? Its not like there were no options.

 

[MJS]

Do nothing and get your *** kicked, or fight back and maybe get your *** kicked. Fighting back is something that is determined long before it is ever a reality. Looking back and saying I should have done this or I could have done that is too late after the fact. Train with intent, train hard, and if the time ever comes, you will be in a better position to determine the out come. The way we train is the way we will react when the chips are down.

Couldn't agree more. This is another reason why I like scenario and spontaneous reaction drills, as well as working with multiples.

 

[MJS]

I'm familiar with those areas. Cheeseman Park in Denver is a place where homosexuals congregate at night, so victims abound. LoDo is a trendy area where wealthy young people from the suburbs party. The 16th Street Mall is a fashionable shopping area that should be safe as houses.

Denver has had a gang problem for a long time, but it wasn't huge and it wasn't targeted at wealthy whites in the past. There were some juvenile gang members convicted years ago of going to find local transients and homeless people and beating them to death. I used to live on 14th / Madison, and you could hear gunshots at night. My apartment was burglarized. However, gang-bangers never hassled me personally.

Its sad the way neighborhoods change over time. As far as the beatings go....thats sad too. There've been many reports on things like this happening. A homeless person gets the crap beat out of them...all for kicks. Disgusting.

I'm really sorry to see in the video that some people walked around the attacks and did nothing at all. I'm also sorry that there were not more DPD in the area. I'm also glad to hear the news actually reporting black-on-white crime. There have been times in the past when race was only reported if the crime was white-on-black; otherwise all mention of race of the attackers or victims was left out, even if it was 'racially motivated'. I do not intend that as a racist statement, it's just an observation from growing up in the western suburbs of Denver and knowing that there was a deep-rooted fear of saying 'black' and 'criminal' in the same sentence. Denver really tried hard to not be racist - too hard, IMHO.

Agreed, and I chalk that up to fear. People are afraid to call the police out of fear that they'll be the next target. So they turn a blind eye. Its a shame people have to live in fear because of punks.

As to self-defense, I agree that this is one of many reasons why we train. There's no reason the victims in these cases should have avoided these areas; with the exception of Cheeseman Park at night, they're supposedly perfectly safe. Not run-down or seedy or etc. In fact, very upscale.

Agreed.

I also think from that one video of the man held in the bear hug and attacked by multiple gang members that even a well-trained martial artist would have had a difficult time escaping from that situation without getting seriously hurt. A case for CCW, for sure, though. However, Denver is anti-gun. The suburbs aren't so much, but Denver proper is.

Agreed. I've said many times that while our training should give us the edge, it wont make us invincible. This is why I said in my OP, as well as other times in various posts, that we, when faced with something like this, should fight with all we have. I guess if the area is anti gun, then picking up any other improvised weapon would be your next option.

Growing up in the Denver area, a lot of people in my high school had pickup trucks with rifle racks in the back windows and rifles/shotguns in them. No problem. Now, guns are viewed as the devil. A product of all the Californians who moved to Denver in the 1980's, IMHO.

Funny you should say that. The person who originally posted the link on the other forum, used to live in CA. He's since moved to AZ, where the gun laws are much more relaxed.

 

[MJS]

CCW is nice, but the bear hug negates that aspect of it right off the bat until you can break away to use it and hopefully they won't find that you have a weapon and all gang up on you to get it, remember, they are doing this as an upward move in the gangs, they have numbers, they find you have a weapon, they outnumber you, it's gang up time more then likely.

Fight like there is no tomorrow.

Unless this was a surprise attack, hopefully if you were able to see what was about to happen, and I was carrying, I'd start prepping myself. But I agree...if they see the weapon, getting it is probably going to be their priority.

 

[Krevon]

*deleted*

 

[MJS]

You better be willing to seriously injure and kill.

If you're greatly outnumbered and have no escape then your first strike better count; sword hands to throats, kicks to knees, etc...

You can't just count on simple punches and kicks in these scenarios. Being outnumbered is no different than an opponent using deadly force (gun, knife, ect)

If you only rely on general martial arts you're probably going to get overwhelmed and the guy you punched is just going to beat you that much harder for it. So, you better make sure he doesn't get back up.

Hopefully your pure aggression and disregard for their bodies will result in "shock & awe" and perhaps provide you with an opportunity to escape.

You have to be nasty if you want to survive. IMHO

Agreed, and this is why I said this in my OP:

"you better be ready to fight hard, fight dirty and fight to win! This means doing anything and everything you can!"

They already upped the stakes, with them outnumbering the victim, so IMO, all bets are off now. I know in other topics, especially ones that're talking about using weapons, people often say, "Would you really be able to pick up that knife, and drive it through flesh?" Ya know what...the thought of it, in the relaxed state, is sickening. However, if its them, or me, my wife, my family, etc., Im not going down without a fight. I guess I'll have to live with the results afterwards.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The video demonstrates why, even if you are an expert shot, fast on the draw, a wizard with the gun, if you mess up and get taken from behind you need other skills. Skills that like shooting take time and effort to learn and ingrain.

You can be suckered by one in front while the other, acting like they don't know the actor in front of you, walks by and grabs you from behind (something in SouthNarcs class we practiced on with FIST gear and simulation guns.)

Deaf