Another ATA 5 year old black belt

[dancingalone]

The Kukkiwon has similar nuances to kicks and strikes, but that doesn't make it complicated. When I said 'complicated' to Twin Fist, I was speaking of the complexity of individual techniques. A side kick is not complicated. Getting it right and and doing it well takes practice, but the mechanics are not particularly complicated. Most kicks that are difficult are difficult because they require a degree of athleticism that is difficult for most people to attain, but that does not make them complicated.

How the techniques are integrated into an overall fighting system is where the complication comes in. Stances, footwork, range, compound movements, tactical preferences, all acting together to realize a specifically taught method of fighting. In contrast, any single technique practiced in isolation can be regarded as simple. Anyone can do a sidekick in the air. On the other hand, can anyone maintain correct distancing in order to snap out an effective piercing side snap kick to the floating ribs when an attacker is bearing down on you with a wild attack of his own? This is exactly the kind of performance outcome that requires targeted training as well as seasoning that only comes with time to pull off. Add in a throw or a pin and you've increased the difficulty of integration by an order of magnitude.

Depends on how you structure the curriculum. If you have punchy kicky in colored belts and don't introduce throws and locks until first dan, then there would be little difference. However, the average time to BB in hapkido from feedback that I have received is that it is pretty much in line with what is seen in taekwondo; two years on average in the states. I could be wrong, as that is feedback that I have personally received, not hard data. But given that hapkido actually has more kicks than TKD, I don't see where TKD with some grappling would be radically longer to first dan.

The hapkido I am most familiar with is that practiced by some people who are in GM JR West's group. They practice his curriculum and admittedly do some local stuff as well. They teach both throwing and locking techniques as soon as the first colored rank is achieved (yellow). They take about 4-5 years to promote a consistent student to chodan. That 5 years thing seems to creep up an awful lot.

IMO TKD with grappling should be taught similarly. You introduce the idea early on - the student doesn't have to be immediately proficient - otherwise you might end up with students who have a clear preference for striking and the medium to long ranges.

Well, if dan grades go up to ninth or tenth dan and it takes over thirty five years to get to ninth and over forty to get to tenth dan, then it really doesn't matter what you think TKD ought to be; first dan is still very early on in the grading structure, even if it takes you six years to get there. From first dan to sixth dan, you are looking at approximately fifteen years of training. So regardless of what you are including in taekwondo, I consider first dan to be a beginning dan. You used the term, "Chodan" above. Does not chodan mean 'beginning dan?'

Forgive me, but you're really looking at this through the KKW lens too much. There are TKD styles that have more material front-ended, where there is not any new technical knowledge or curriculum after 4th dan or so. I'm approaching this from a general TKD perspective where I'd rather see visible differences in even the brown belts from the purple belts and focused sharpness when comparing the chodans to the red belts.

 

[mastercole]

Master Cole, I'd be interested in hearing in your words what you feel a black belt means to the founders of Taekwondo. I know you've talked with many of the founders and I know you'd be paraphrasing/going from memory, but I'm interested in what they've had to say on the topic.

I have no personal opinion on what the belt means. But I can share what I have been told by the Taekwondo founders/pioneers living in Korea, whom I have spoken to and learned from directly while I was in Korea.

What they have related to me is this. Being awarded Dan, whether it be via hard work, good skill, dedication, contribution, allied support or a combination of those things, means that one is now accepted into Taekwondo as a member. What Dan level a person is awarded is generally based on to what degree a Dan holder has endeavored in these mentioned pursuits and highers levels of Dan are used to encourage the Dan holder into deeper, extended pursuit.

Some founder types have went on to talk about Dan further saying basically that 9th Dan being the highest and last Dan means that the 9th Dan holder no longer needs Dan level awards to continue pursuit of excellence in these mentioned pursuits as through long dedication and striving for excellence they no longer desire award/reward for their efforts, their efforts are for altruistic reasons now. Symbolizing they have become empty of such desire (s) (probably many years early on).

About the belt

The various colors of the geup belts represent the various spectrum of human emotion. The geup holder experiences the spectrum of these internal obstacles, eventually combining them all, and as when you combine all primary colors, you get black and black represents the emptiness of the vast emptiness of the universe (taegeuk). The goal for color belt experience is black belt understanding.

The black color of the Dan belt represents the new Dan holders realization that the new goal is the death of these emotions (ignorance's, desires, delusion) they identified as a geup holder. The new Dan holder, who now has basic talent, confronts these internal obstacles via the pursuit of refinement and excellence. This confrontation with the self, will take place for many years across many levels as long as the Dan holder does not give up, eventually the Dan holder should victor over the self (pil-seung) and no longer be challenged by these internal obstacles. The 9th Dan represents this in it's symbolism as finality and death. This type of person, after actual physical death, can be considered for 10th Dan, which is symbolic that this persons altruistic contributions live on, still making great contribution to others. 10th Dan (Ship Dan) is symbolic in this way as it relates to the "shipjangsang" of the "ten longest living things" from ancient Korean philosophy of nature worship, being that this person, award 10th Dan after death, still lives on through their works.

The belt it self as something tangible and separate from the Dan holds a meaning that it binds together heaven and earth. The dobok top being heaven, the pants earth. What binds heaven and earth? Humans do. So the belt means "humanity." Human is a combination of their thoughts of heaven and earth and live between heaven and earth, binding them through conscience and self. The belt its has the shape of the square, or a plane representing stability and earth. The wrapping of the belt around the human in the shape of a circle (point), represents instability and the sky/heavens (think flight, free from earth), and the triangle knot made by double tying in opposite directions (um/yang) has the shape of a triangle (vertical line) and represents a human who is effected by heaven (instability) and earth (stability).

This meaning of the belt (part of the dobok) comes form the yukhak principle. Every movement/action, shape/thought, no mater how minor, of every single technique of Taekwondo is based on the yukhak principle. This gets much more complex and must be crossed over physically to even begin to explain the rest, so it can't be completely written out here.

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan Well, if dan grades go up to ninth or tenth dan and it takes over thirty five years to get to ninth and over forty to get to tenth dan, then it really doesn't matter what you think TKD ought to be; first dan is still very early on in the grading structure, even if it takes you six years to get there. From first dan to sixth dan, you are looking at approximately fifteen years of training. So regardless of what you are including in taekwondo, I consider first dan to be a beginning dan. You used the term, "Chodan" above. Does not chodan mean 'beginning dan?'



Forgive me, but you're really looking at this through the KKW lens too much. There are TKD styles that have more material front-ended, where there is not any new technical knowledge or curriculum after 4th dan or so. I'm approaching this from a general TKD perspective where I'd rather see visible differences in even the brown belts from the purple belts and focused sharpness when comparing the chodans to the red belts.

Being that Kukkiwon Taekwondo is the most common Taekwondo found in the world (internationally) I would think that it would be the "general" type and this generally type of Taekwondo is not known for locks and throws, especially at color belt levels. What would these other styles be? An older form from Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, or other Kwan, or something hybrid?

 

[dancingalone]

Being that Kukkiwon Taekwondo is the most common Taekwondo found in the world (internationally) I would think that it would be the "general" type and this generally type of Taekwondo is not known for locks and throws, especially at color belt levels.

<shrugs> That's true enough. A strange development to my way of thinking, but it is what it is.

I prefer a more complete approach, and so that is what I teach.

 

[mastercole]

<shrugs> That's true enough. A strange development to my way of thinking, but it is what it is.

I prefer a more complete approach, and so that is what I teach.

I am the same way in that I strive to completely understand Taekwondo and not go searching outside of Taekwondo looking for things to "complete" it, it's already complete, I just need to study deeply to find it.

 

[dancingalone]

I am the same way in that I strive to completely understand Taekwondo and not go searching outside of Taekwondo looking for things to "complete" it, it's already complete, I just need to study deeply to find it.

Are you saying it is complete in the sense that it contains close range fighting methods already? Or are you saying it is a striking art primarily and thus already is complete a priori?

I could see someone rationally making an argument either way. I obviously trend towards the first interpretation myself though I believe the majority of TKD instructors neglect the close range for whatever reason.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How the techniques are integrated into an overall fighting system is where the complication comes in. Stances, footwork, range, compound movements, tactical preferences, all acting together to realize a specifically taught method of fighting. In contrast, any single technique practiced in isolation can be regarded as simple. Anyone can do a sidekick in the air. On the other hand, can anyone maintain correct distancing in order to snap out an effective piercing side snap kick to the floating ribs when an attacker is bearing down on you with a wild attack of his own? This is exactly the kind of performance outcome that requires targeted training as well as seasoning that only comes with time to pull off. Add in a throw or a pin and you've increased the difficulty of integration by an order of magnitude.

I consider that challenging, though not necesarilly complicated.

The hapkido I am most familiar with is that practiced by some people who are in GM JR West's group. They practice his curriculum and admittedly do some local stuff as well. They teach both throwing and locking techniques as soon as the first colored rank is achieved (yellow). They take about 4-5 years to promote a consistent student to chodan. That 5 years thing seems to creep up an awful lot.

Probably depends on what groups or schools you are familiar with. What group is GM JR West with?

Forgive me, but you're really looking at this through the KKW lens too much. There are TKD styles that have more material front-ended, where there is not any new technical knowledge or curriculum after 4th dan or so. I'm approaching this from a general TKD perspective where I'd rather see visible differences in even the brown belts from the purple belts and focused sharpness when comparing the chodans to the red belts.

I am?

Most of the material in KKW is learned prior to first dan and I have not stated otherwise. I have stated that there has been enough material after second dan to say that a second dan has not learned the entire system. I would also go so far as to say that I would be leary of training at a school where the head instructor was only second dan. I would not dismiss them out of hand, but it would be a red flag in my opinion.

My main art is Kendo, which is pretty front ended also. What separates advanced practitioners is not the quantity of techniques but the depth of techniques. As a general rule, the quality of a kendoka can be determined by seeing them practice one technique: shomen uchi. I once had a Korean (from Korea) TKD instructor who told me that he could tell how long a taekwondoist had been training by looking at their back stance alone. He was a fourth dan and there was a world of difference in how he executed the geub level techniques as compared to a first or even a second dan.

Knowing the techniques and having proficiency in them to the point of being able to use them effectively when sparring is not overly complicated in any MA that has a sportive element to it. But the depth of one's skill at fifth dan is (or at least should be) very different than the depth of one's skill at first dan, even if there are only a handful of new techniques between first and fifth.

I don't know what these other "TKD styles" are if they aren't ITF or ATA, but I do know that most MA systems that uses the kyu/dan system consider chodan students to be beginners who have learned the basics of the art. Even if a style front loads the material so that virtually every technique is learned in colored belts and one spends five years in colored belts, they've still essentially beginners in the art. Some may be very athletically gifted, but they are gifted novices.
Saying that front loading the material makes them somehow not a still a novice in the art is like saying that a law student is an experienced lawyer because he just passed the bar. He is not an experienced lawyer at that point and he certainly is no law professor, even though he may have learned what needs to proficiently practice his field of law.

 

[dancingalone]

What would these other styles be? An older form from Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, or other Kwan, or something hybrid?

I had in mind a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do group that was active in Texas and Oklahoma in the seventies and eighties. Not sure if they are around any more though I know some guys from that group have moved onto other affiliations. In any case, this group had no new material after 4th or 5th dan. The master level material were Korean versions of the Japanese karate forms like Sip Soo and Kong Sang Koon.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

<shrugs> That's true enough. A strange development to my way of thinking, but it is what it is.

I prefer a more complete approach, and so that is what I teach.

So what happened to these other styles? It seems that you are looking at this primarilly through the lens of what you teach and what you feel that taekwondo ought to be.

I have no criticism of what you think in this regard; we've conversed enough for me to say that I think very highly of how you look at things. But I do think that if you are going to reference 'other styles' of taekwondo as your support for viewing chodan as anything other than a beginning dan, it would be nice to know what these other styles are, particularly if they are not ATA or ITF, where first dan is considered a beginning dan and a fairly low rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I had in mind a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do group that was active in Texas and Oklahoma in the seventies and eighties. Not sure if they are around any more though I know some guys from that group have moved onto other affiliations. In any case, this group had no new material after 4th or 5th dan. The master level material were Korean versions of the Japanese karate forms like Sip Soo and Kong Sang Koon.

Half of MDK joined the KKW. The half that didn't was tang soo do so far as I know, which is not taekwondo, but Korean karate.

Though if they have new material up to fifth dan, and assuming that fifth dan is roughly ten years after chodan, then that sounds like a pretty substantial amount of material. So yes, I would still consider chodan to be a beginning dan and a fairly low rank.

 

[mastercole]

Are you saying it is complete in the sense that it contains close range fighting methods already? Or are you saying it is a striking art primarily and thus already is complete a priori?

I could see someone rationally making an argument either way. I obviously trend towards the first interpretation myself though I believe the majority of TKD instructors neglect the close range for whatever reason.

I think differently. First, Taekwondo is my way of life and has been for some time now. For me my interest in martial arts started out as a component to improve my fighting/self defense ability. Later it became all about self discovery. Ultimately, self discovery is about self defense, on all levels.

As for a grappling curriculum, no, we do not have a highly developed grappling curriculum in Taekwondo, nor do we need one, for either self discovery or for self defense. I am completely satisfied with what is there in Taekwondo, that is why I ended up staying here. I never felt the need to add grappling, bow and arrow, shooting or any other martial art skills to it. Knowing myself defends me the best against those threats.

 

[mastercole]

There seems to be to much concern in regard to learning a curriculum or system of a martial art. It do not think the real value is in the curriculum or system, I feel it is in the exploration of technique and subsequent application of the techniques.

To many people can demonstrate 1-30 of this, and 1-50 of that, and all the forms in this or that, but have no real evolution in skills. Evolution in actual technical skill and application skill to me, is the greater learning.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There seems to be to much concern in regard to learning a curriculum or system of a martial art. It do not think the real value is in the curriculum or system, I feel it is in the exploration of technique and subsequent application of the techniques.

To many people can demonstrate 1-30 of this, and 1-50 of that, and all the forms in this or that, but have no real evolution in skills. Evolution in actual technical skill and application skill to me, is the greater learning.

Here, here!!

 

[puunui]

Well it's like I said, yes, according to the requirements of that organization, yes, my black belt would've been legitimate. But everyone has their own idea of what the general concept of "black belt" should reflect. Your concept seems to be . . . whatever the organization says it is. But there are clearly posters on here who feel that, regardless of style, regardless of organization, there are essential qualities which should be present when thinking of "a black belt."

Everyone has their own idea of what a "black belt" is. All instructors have their own standards and also their own reasons for promoting someone to "black belt". Where the disagreements come about is when someone uses their own standards or their organization's standards to judge the legitimacy of someone's promotion who is outside their organization, instructor, or even style. How fair is it to judge a judo rank, from a taekwondo perspective?

 

[puunui]

A 1st Poom/Dan should be confident in being able to teach small groups of students (e.g. up to 4 people) basic techniques and early patterns. Their movements should be mainly correct. If they have small errors they should be able to be told them and correct them without needing constant reminding - they should be self-motivated.

Personally, I don't think 1st Poom/Dan should be teaching anyone anything. They should be focused primarily on their own learning and development. There is plenty of time to get into teaching later down the path. Same for 2nd Poom/Dan.

 

[puunui]

I've owned a commercial dojang for almost 4 months now. I can tell everyone that one of the most common questions I answer for prospects and/or their parents is 'How long does it take to get a black belt'. To a lesser extent, a few of them have had previous experience elsewhere and they can be a little surprised when I tell them my best guesstimate is that training 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time, it might take 3+ years to attain sufficient physical competence to be awarded a chodan (and this is hardly a grueling gauntlet of time).

Give it time. You may change your views soon enough, or at least understand why other instructors promote quicker than you are used to. Also, I believe kukki taekwondo calls it il dan now, and has retired the cho dan terminology.

 

[miguksaram]

Guess old Chuck Norris really must be crap! He started in 1958 and was back in the US opening a chain of dojos in 1962. Sounds like less than two years to black belt to me (I'm pretty sure that he got his in about a year). And to open a dojo in only four years.... when everyone knows that you have to be at least fourth dan to open a dojo... and that takes at least another four years.... Chuck must have been totally unqualified!!

Actually if you think about the vast majority of servicemen who received their black belts in the military back in that time, then they would have all been considered crap and unqualified to open a dojo when they came back to the states.

 

[dancingalone]

So what happened to these other styles? It seems that you are looking at this primarilly through the lens of what you teach and what you feel that taekwondo ought to be.

If we're talking about TKD with close range methods added, perhaps it never truly existed under the name of 'taekwondo'. I reference what was known about the early TKD men where it is said a bunch of them trained judo as well, such as the accounts of GM Chun, Sang Sup studying judo in high school and then later teaching karate/tkd to judo practitioners at one of the gymnasiums in Seoul (slipped my mind). There are other examples surely.

So if as TKD became organized and codified, it would seem like these founders did not necessarily pass on everything they knew and learned to their creation. Regardless, this is what I mean when I speak about old school TKD as practiced by the founders - strong karate enhanced by the addition of powerful Korean kicking as well as grappling methods received through judo.

But I do think that if you are going to reference 'other styles' of taekwondo as your support for viewing chodan as anything other than a beginning dan, it would be nice to know what these other styles are, particularly if they are not ATA or ITF, where first dan is considered a beginning dan and a fairly low rank.

Well I mentioned the Moo Duk Kwan TKD group above... There's also the 'Texkwondo' Jhoon Rhee system I personally trained in. You pretty much had learned everything by 2nd dan in the style, except for a few dan forms (we didn't use all the Chang Hon forms - maybe 4 of the dan hyung in addition to the color belt forms as well as learning a few Japanese forms).

 

[puunui]

Guess old Chuck Norris really must be crap! He started in 1958 and was back in the US opening a chain of dojos in 1962. Sounds like less than two years to black belt to me (I'm pretty sure that he got his in about a year). And to open a dojo in only four years.... when everyone knows that you have to be at least fourth dan to open a dojo... and that takes at least another four years.... Chuck must have been totally unqualified!!

I believe GM Norris received his Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan in 18 months. I want to say he flunked his first test and came back in six months and passed.

 

[Twin Fist]

Just curious, if your training included manners. I personally haven't awarded a 5 year old black belt, but would not hesitate to do so under the right circumstances. More to the point, I know people that have, that I have a great deal of respect for. Having differing opinions is always fine and while sometimes it may get passionate, I'd appreciate it if you'd drop the name calling of people you don't even know.

and i would appreciate it if there were not people giving BB's to barely potty trained infants