Another ATA 5 year old black belt

[SPX]

The question is not what each person's idea of a black belt is what it means within the art and within the organization. The ATA promotes Songahm taekwondo. What does a black belt mean in that style?

Songahm taekwondo uses belts for competition bracketing, along with age, gender, and weight.

Well it's like I said, yes, according to the requirements of that organization, yes, my black belt would've been legitimate. But everyone has their own idea of what the general concept of "black belt" should reflect. Your concept seems to be . . . whatever the organization says it is. But there are clearly posters on here who feel that, regardless of style, regardless of organization, there are essential qualities which should be present when thinking of "a black belt."

So you do not think her belt was legitimate or you do? Your answer is not clear.

You asked if I thought it was "not legitimate." I said don't think so at all, that is I do not think it is "not legitimate," meaning that I think it IS legitimate.

As for the self defense element, the whole belt system was introduced for a combination of teachers aid and competition bracketing and the ranking system was specifically for competition bracketing. Also, the kyu/dan system was lifted from Go, a Japanese game that is similar to Reversi or Chinese checkers. If self defense was what it was to correspond to, methinks Kano would have picked something else.

Funakoshi, as I understand, introduced the kyu/dan system in order to help get Shotokan into the school system. Doesn't exactly scream self defense.

Regardless of their intention, it's an inescapable fact that those guys are gone. Yes, their systems are still being taught, but those systems have continued to evolve, and I would argue that ideas about the belt system have as well.

Well, here is how proficient a five year old can be:

So after watching those videos, how can you say that a five year old would be incapable of "doing the motions proficiently?" And the kids in those videos clearly know how to practice. Particularly the last one.

I like that you posted 3 gymnastics videos and a dance vid to prove your point about martial arts. That notwithstanding, those kids are impressive. I'll grant you that the kids in the last vid are freaks of nature. But I can at least say that all the 5 year olds I've personally seen performing patterns do so with a certain herky jerky, almost robot like kind of movement that denies them an ability to perform the task with what I would call "acceptable technique."

Now, I think that these kids are older than five, but they don't look any older than ten.

I would say they're around 12, and they are right about the age that I would say it's acceptable for them to earn a black belt because they have the physical and mental maturity to do so.

 

[SPX]

And whether we like it or not, most people out there (both martial artists and non martial artisits) see a black belt as a very high level of proficiency, so hearing about "one year black belts" and "5 year old black belts" is always going to raise eyebrows.

Just as an aside, I believe that there are official programs available to get a black belt in a year in both aikido and judo, but you basically have to go to Japan, live at the Kodokan (or the aikido equivalent) like a monk, and train 8 hours a day to do so.

So I guess really it's a matter of hours invested, not days between gradings. If you see what I mean.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This is where certain types of tkd does themself no favours I feel. Its all good and well to say "oh, yeah but in OUR form of tkd a black belt means something different, so its ok to hand them out a bit easier", but if you are the only martial art to have this theory it quite easily gets misunderstood in the wider community. It would be like opening a burger place and selling burgers thats just the bread with nothing else and then when people say "gee you make a crap hamburger, its just two bits of bread" replying with "oh no, at THIS burger place we believe a burger is just two slices of bread". Sure, they can say that, but its widely aknowledged that a hamburger isnt just two slices of bread. Just as these places can say that its fine to give out a black belt in one year and justify it with the old adage that they believe a black belt means something different, but very few people out there accept that a black belt is attainable in one year (outside of a couple of forms of tkd).

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just as an aside, I believe that there are official programs available to get a black belt in a year in both aikido and judo, but you basically have to go to Japan, live at the Kodokan (or the aikido equivalent) like a monk, and train 8 hours a day to do so.

So I guess really it's a matter of hours invested, not days between gradings. If you see what I mean.

I have no doubt that all martial arts have the "dodgy joe's kung fu academy" that hands out black belts in a year, but they are few and far between and are not huge organisations.

 

[SPX]

I have no doubt that all martial arts have the "dodgy joe's kung fu academy" that hands out black belts in a year, but they are few and far between and are not huge organisations.

I'm referring to the real deal, though. The Kodokan, if you're not familiar with judo, is basically judo HQ in Japan.

As for the Aikido program, I'm no expert but it's mentioned in this vid:

 

[hoshindo]

Now this is my take on all of this.......each instructor to their own and all sees in a different view.
NOW it sounds like most of you hold the BELT in a very high place. If you have these students training with you lets say 5 years ( a 10yo a 20yo a 40yo a 55yo ) and in 5 years they test for the “BLACK BELT” is your expectations the same across the board? Do you expect to 55yo to do the same as the 20yo? Do you expect the 10yo to do the same as the 40yo? If you make expectations because of the age differences then maybe you are doing the same as instructors giving a BELT at a young age.


Now if a “black belt” is to know the basics really good and remember we tell the students that your journey starts at the “black belt” level.
Lets say I teach the basic kicks (only 6 ) front / side / back / roundhouse / inside & outside crescents.
And the 8 to 10 basic hand strikes, leaving all of the spinning and jumping techniques to be at “black belt” level and the student shows me that they know all of the basic techniques then why not promote that student to “black belt” at whatever age that student is.


Now another ?. Is one of your “black belt” students lost in an altercation would you strip that student of their “belt”? Because is sounds like most of you think that a 5 year old BB has to be able to handle themselves against an adult.
If that 5yo or that 20yo quits are they still a BB 15 or 20 years later? Just a few things on my mind.

Jim

 

[Cyriacus]

Now this is my take on all of this.......each instructor to their own and all sees in a different view.
NOW it sounds like most of you hold the BELT in a very high place.

Belts are great for keeping your Uniform Tidy. It also signifies Experience.

If you have these students training with you lets say 5 years ( a 10yo a 20yo a 40yo a 55yo ) and in 5 years they test for the “BLACK BELT” is your expectations the same across the board?

Unless the Practitioner is Physically Incapacitated, Yes.

Do you expect to 55yo to do the same as the 20yo? Do you expect the 10yo to do the same as the 40yo?

No. Which is why I wouldnt give the 10yo a BB. Or the 55yo if He couldnt cut it. He could however get a Brown Belt with a Black Tip.

If you make expectations because of the age differences then maybe you are doing the same as instructors giving a BELT at a young age.

No - Im setting Standards.

Now if a “black belt” is to know the basics really good and remember we tell the students that your journey starts at the “black belt” level.

The Black Belt signifies the ascertainment of the Foundation. The White Belt is the start of the Journey. But to each their own.

Lets say I teach the basic kicks (only 6 ) front / side / back / roundhouse / inside & outside crescents.
And the 8 to 10 basic hand strikes, leaving all of the spinning and jumping techniques to be at “black belt” level and the student shows me that they know all of the basic techniques then why not promote that student to “black belt” at whatever age that student is.

Because of their ability to APPLY them. Skill is not just skill at doing movements. Its in USING them.

Now another ?. Is one of your “black belt” students lost in an altercation would you strip that student of their “belt”?

How is that relevant?

Because is sounds like most of you think that a 5 year old BB has to be able to handle themselves against an adult.

No, they need to be able to fully apply what theyve been taught. Not just be technically correct whilst quoting whats been told to them.

If that 5yo or that 20yo quits are they still a BB 15 or 20 years later?

What rank where they before they quit?

Just a few things on my mind.

Jim

Just My Contribution.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Now this is my take on all of this.......each instructor to their own and all sees in a different view.
NOW it sounds like most of you hold the BELT in a very high place. If you have these students training with you lets say 5 years ( a 10yo a 20yo a 40yo a 55yo ) and in 5 years they test for the “BLACK BELT” is your expectations the same across the board? Do you expect to 55yo to do the same as the 20yo? Do you expect the 10yo to do the same as the 40yo? If you make expectations because of the age differences then maybe you are doing the same as instructors giving a BELT at a young age.


Now if a “black belt” is to know the basics really good and remember we tell the students that your journey starts at the “black belt” level.
Lets say I teach the basic kicks (only 6 ) front / side / back / roundhouse / inside & outside crescents.
And the 8 to 10 basic hand strikes, leaving all of the spinning and jumping techniques to be at “black belt” level and the student shows me that they know all of the basic techniques then why not promote that student to “black belt” at whatever age that student is.


Now another ?. Is one of your “black belt” students lost in an altercation would you strip that student of their “belt”? Because is sounds like most of you think that a 5 year old BB has to be able to handle themselves against an adult.
If that 5yo or that 20yo quits are they still a BB 15 or 20 years later? Just a few things on my mind.

Jim

I think time is of bigger significance than age. I have not seen a student yet who was able to even get close to what I consider a black belt level in under 5 years of training including training outside of class. I have also yet to see a child under the age of 7 or 8 who can even begin to 'understand' what they are learning, not just memorising a series of moves. So my personal opinion is that if a child started tkd aged 8 and trained hard for 5 years then there is a possibility they could be profficicient to a standard that I consider a black belt by maybe 13 years old if they are lucky.

 

[andyjeffries]

Generally I find that most Americans, and especially most of those Americans who practice Asian martial arts, have no clue as to what a black belt actually means to the founders of their style.

Master Cole, I'd be interested in hearing in your words what you feel a black belt means to the founders of Taekwondo. I know you've talked with many of the founders and I know you'd be paraphrasing/going from memory, but I'm interested in what they've had to say on the topic.

Everyone has an idea of what a black belt means, I know I do. I feel that a black belt should be achievable by everyone. It may take some longer than others, some may be better than others, but it's a step on the journey that shows you are capable of learning. I wrote out a while ago my expectations for each grade and for 1st Poom/Dan I wrote:

A 1st Poom/Dan should be confident in being able to teach small groups of students (e.g. up to 4 people) basic techniques and early patterns. Their movements should be mainly correct. If they have small errors they should be able to be told them and correct them without needing constant reminding - they should be self-motivated.

This sums up my feelings on that rank.

But, as I said, I'd be interested in hearing what the founders think of it. I'd imagine they aren't thinking about 1st Dans being able to teach yet, but for me that's a key concept of being able to do something (if you can't explain it to someone else, you don't really know it) and I want to train my students not just to be fighters or martial artists, but future teachers of others.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Master Cole, I'd be interested in hearing in your words what you feel a black belt means to the founders of Taekwondo. I know you've talked with many of the founders and I know you'd be paraphrasing/going from memory, but I'm interested in what they've had to say on the topic.

Everyone has an idea of what a black belt means, I know I do. I feel that a black belt should be achievable by everyone. It may take some longer than others, some may be better than others, but it's a step on the journey that shows you are capable of learning. I wrote out a while ago my expectations for each grade and for 1st Poom/Dan I wrote:

A 1st Poom/Dan should be confident in being able to teach small groups of students (e.g. up to 4 people) basic techniques and early patterns. Their movements should be mainly correct. If they have small errors they should be able to be told them and correct them without needing constant reminding - they should be self-motivated.

This sums up my feelings on that rank.

But, as I said, I'd be interested in hearing what the founders think of it. I'd imagine they aren't thinking about 1st Dans being able to teach yet, but for me that's a key concept of being able to do something (if you can't explain it to someone else, you don't really know it) and I want to train my students not just to be fighters or martial artists, but future teachers of others.

I have to agree with where you said "a black belt should be achievable to everyone". The standards and requirements should be things anybody can achieve with hard work and persistence (maybe not at 5 years old though). I heard of a club once that had a black belt grading requiremnet of doing a 540 kick. I thought that was a bit over the top, I think there are certain things that arent achievable by everyone and they should not be part of grading requirements etc.

 

[dancingalone]

Just as an aside, I believe that there are official programs available to get a black belt in a year in both aikido and judo, but you basically have to go to Japan, live at the Kodokan (or the aikido equivalent) like a monk, and train 8 hours a day to do so.

So I guess really it's a matter of hours invested, not days between gradings. If you see what I mean.

Aikido has strict practice requirements before a student can become eligible to test for a higher rank. These are the US Aikido Federation guidelines - the USAF is affiliated with the Aikikai Hombu in Japan, and I imagine the requirements are the same there, as it is the world HQ that issues ranks ultimately based on the recommendation of approved instructors.

6th kyu 20 days of practice
5th Kyu 40 days of practice
4th Kyu 80 days of practice after obtaining 5th Kyu
3rd Kyu 100 days of practice after obtaining 4th Kyu
2nd Kyu 200 days of practice after obtaining 3rd Kyu
1st Kyu 300 days of practice after obtaining 2nd Kyu
1st Dan 300 days of practice after obtaining 1st Kyu


These are actual days of practice - attendance is recorded. Based on USAF requirements you could not achieve shodan within a year or even 3 years. Furthermore, there is a minimum age of 18 to hold the rank of shodan. Most shodans in my experience generally take 5 -7 years to achieve it the distinction. The culture within aikido does not further the idea that achieving rank quickly is a good thing. Ready is ready. If that is quickly, then great. If not, then in due time. Without addressing the idea of an intensive live-in course that SPX brought up, we can look at the 'how long to BB' threads commonly on Aikiweb and other aikido discussion forums - they uniformly indicate even across styles, that an aikido BB is an achievement requiring considerable time.

Now how does this apply to the subject of child black belts? Well, since the argument that dan ranks are linked to competition bracketing persists to be given, I put forward the case that aikido with arguably even closer roots to jujutsu and thus judo than TKD, has similarly added a dan ranking system. Yet in mainline aikido there is no concept of 'competition bracketing'. Instead the belts are used to indicate proficiency and thus there are firm practice time requirements along with a minimum age. IMO this is a good thing and it is a clear example of where the meaning of dan ranks has moved way past competitive purposes.

I believe reducing the position of those who disagree with child black belts as being jealous, egotistical, or unskilled frankly does a disservice to TKD and martial arts in general. There's nothing wrong with higher standards - not impossible ones mind you.

 

[miguksaram]

I know this is way out there, but how many of you get pissy about the sales group Six Sigma that gives out black belt certificates for their program? If you do, why? If not, why?

 

[dancingalone]

I know this is way out there, but how many of you get pissy about the sales group Six Sigma that gives out black belt certificates for their program? If you do, why? If not, why?

I roll my eyes at it. Still, I don't know any 5 year olds who are getting Six Sigma certified.

 

[miguksaram]

I roll my eyes at it. Still, I don't know any 5 year olds who are getting Six Sigma certified.

But why do you roll your eyes at it? (Just humor me...haven't had my coffee yet)

 

[dancingalone]

But why do you roll your eyes at it? (Just humor me...haven't had my coffee yet)

Because you can take a certification course in something like a week and emerge as a Six Sigma BB or at least that used to be the case in the nineties. I worked in consulting and this cert was just another set of initials you could tack onto your resume/CV to make yourself and your firm look impressive to clients. I am sure the knowledge in quality management the program is supposed to impart is a great thing - if you actually learn the material.

 

[Cyriacus]

Because you can take a certification course in something like a week and emerge as a Six Sigma BB or at least that used to be the case in the nineties. I worked in consulting and this cert was just another set of initials you could tack onto your resume/CV to make yourself and your firm look impressive to clients. I am sure the knowledge in quality management the program is supposed to impart is a great thing - if you actually learn the material.

Quick Question. I Googled Six Sigma. Is it what I think it is? $550 for a Black Belt?

 

[dancingalone]

By the way, I seem to be the only person on this thread that actually has CURRENT ATA experience: my niece and nephew are ATA black belts (yes, they are minors) and I regularly work with them so I know their curriculum quite well and I've been known to take them to a tournament or two when my sister can't. And, um, yes within the ATA there is at the very least a concept of performance proficiency as well associated with the grades. It is not entirely about sports pairing. In fact, ATA instructors talk extensively about what each belt color is supposed to mean and they freely use the word 'mastery' even at the brown belt level.


Brown Belt
"THE TREE IS TAKING ROOT." At this point, the student has mastered the basics and developed deep roots in Taekwondo.

Interesting word to use there. MASTERED. As in 'Acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).'

So any of you that want to minimize the ATA and their standards, well OFFICIALLY they're supposed to be high, regardless of the age of the student. If there are individual schools and instructors, even a lot of them, who allow something less in their students, well that's their problem. And the same goes for non-ATA people too.

 

[dancingalone]

Quick Question. I Googled Six Sigma. Is it what I think it is? $550 for a Black Belt?

I've no idea what you think what it is... It's essentially a quality management certification. It started in the manufacturing sector with research done by some people at Motorola. It's grown considerably since its inception and now is used in even customer service organizations.

As for cost, I'm sure it's high enough. Most people who get it are sponsored by their employer, generally large companies, so the amount isn't a factor normally.

 

[Cyriacus]

I've no idea what you think what it is... It's essentially a quality management certification. It started in the manufacturing sector with research done by some people at Motorola. It's grown considerably since its inception and now is used in even customer service organizations.

As for cost, I'm sure it's high enough. Most people who get it are sponsored by their employer, generally large companies, so the amount isn't a factor normally.

Thats just it - Im unsure why a Quality Management place has Belts.

 

[dancingalone]

Thats just it - Im unsure why a Quality Management place has Belts.

Marketing. The funny thing is that a Six Sigma black belt is supposed to be a technical expert in their research and implementation process. I suspect the guy who came up with the lingo for Six Sigma didn't have competitive bracketing in his head when he decided to use black belt to designate the expert grade.