"American" Karate -- Just what is it?

[SPX]

Me? No. In our school, there is only Isshin-Ryu karate. Our dojo does not have any emphasis on competition, although some of our students (like me) like to compete. It is not a requirement; sparring for one-point competitions is not specifically taught. We only teach Isshin-Ryu. What would *I* want to teach? No clue. Isshin-Ryu, I guess. Doesn't matter much, I won't live long enough to reach instructor status.

I think it's an interesting question.

I had a conversation with a tang soo do instructor a little while back and he said that he felt TSD is a fine art for self-defense, but if someone came to him and said they were interested in TSD and their main reason was to learn to fight then he'd probably suggest boxing instead. His reasoning was that TMAs offer fighting skills, but perhaps they are even better at imparting a certain philosophy, a tradition, discipline and other such benefits. If you just want to learn to fight or learn self-defense, and these other things are not important to you, then there are probably better, more-streamlined styles that will get you where you want to go in a shorter period of time.

If self-defense was my only goal then I would probably not be looking to join a karate school. So I guess I agree with the above perspective. But the tradition, links to Asian culture, and sport opportunities are important to me.

In any case, that's my thoughts, and I was just curious about others' thoughts. Thanks for yours.

Your wording is not unlike those who have come here in the past and immediately started up by trying to get others to slam this style or that school. You're new, so you have no track record. All I can say is that we don't do that here. But since you're new, you probably did not know how many trolls come trolling around making "XYZ art is really a scam, huh?" or "I think sport karate isn't really karate, what do you think?" When I start reading threads like that, I pretty much know where it's going. If you're not one of those sorts, then I apologize. But you sure came off that way.

I understand. There actually was a time when I was a lot less tolerant. I would've had a negative attitude toward "sport" martial arts, toward XMA kind of stuff, toward stop-point sparring, etc. But I've come to realize that all of these things can have merit and, at the end of the day, if someone enjoys doing them then that's the important thing.

Take XMA as an example. Nothing could be farther from a martial arts oriented activity that is useless for self-defense than XMA, but a lot of things in life that are fun and enriching--basketball, watching a good movie, gardening--have no value for self-defense. The truth is that most of us will go our entire lives without ending up in a self-defense situation. Considering that whatever martial art you choose is something you're going to have to do every week--perhaps even every day--then it better be something that is fun for you.

I guess all that is to say that no, I wasn't trying to cause trouble. I was just asking a question that I was curious about and that I was hoping would generate some discussion and keep the thread going.

I assumed it's a boilerplate website for generic 'karate schools' and the owner is still in the process of filling in the blanks.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. But now that you mentioned it you're probably right.

My inner BS detector would be staying away from that place like the plague.

If I just stumbled across the website, then my reaction would be similar. But I was on another forum and was talking about the kind of competition sparring I was interested in and someone responded that I would probably want to look into a school that competes in NBL and NASKA-style competitions. I said that I wasn't familiar with those organizations and didn't know of any such schools in my area. He said he would contact a friend and make an inquiry for me . . . then the next day he came back with two "excellent suggestions": this school and another one that's too far away.

But as we've already said, I need to go check it out, which I intend to do. I'll report back afterward.

That's one way to get a recommendation. Of course, since you haven't trained with this person, I presume, it's still not terribly useful in real world terms. You'd be amazed how many martial artists on forums don't train, or stopped training after 3 months but still feel the need to hang out and offer advice.

This guy is an ATA TKD school owner/instructor. And I know that the ATA does not have a great reputation, but he as an individual at least seemed quite knowledgeable about the world of sport karate.

Best way to do it. Good luck in your search.

Thanks.

 

[Buka]

So I have seen the term "American Karate" bandied about for years, but having never trained at a school that advertised themselves as such, I've never fully understood it. So what exactly is "American" Karate and why would karate ever be labeled so?

"American Karate" came about the same way as every other Martial Art style came about. Students who trained a long time in an art went on to teach their version of that art. Along the way changes were made, new terms were used, different names adopted. In the case of American Karate, soldiers in the United States Armed Forces returned from abroad, brought with them what they learned and American Karate was bron.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

 

[SPX]

From what I've gathered, though, there's more to it than that. If an American comes from Japan having learned Shotokan but teaches it the same way it was taught to him, then that's an American teaching karate . . . not American Karate.

As the Wikipedia article I quoted mentioned, it seems that with those who term what they do "American" Karate there is a foundational difference in philosophy and, often, techniques from more traditional styles.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

From what I've gathered, though, there's more to it than that. If an American comes from Japan having learned Shotokan but teaches it the same way it was taught to him, then that's an American teaching karate . . . not American Karate.

As the Wikipedia article I quoted mentioned, it seems that with those who term what they do "American" Karate there is a foundational difference in philosophy and, often, techniques from more traditional styles.

I appreciate your comments. Sorry I came off spring-loaded by your initial statements, I apologize. I suspect that many systems that do not claim a traditional lineage are trying to intentionally teach the basics that are similar to all Okinawan/Japanese empty-hand styles and just not include the traditions, learning Japanese, bowing, this that and the other; if their teaching is good, I can't see how that hurts anyone to learn it that way. Me, I like the tradition and using Japanese terms and so on. So everybody has to find their own path to walk I guess. And I know that many dojos make sport karate a big part of their training; again, to each their own. I like to compete, but I'm not a fanatic about it; I don't join the 'circuits' but just go to competitions when it's convenient or they're interesting. In our dojo, almost no one competes, and that's cool. We're just not that into it. One man's meat, another man's poison, etc. Anyway, welcome to MT.

 

[SPX]

I appreciate your comments. Sorry I came off spring-loaded by your initial statements, I apologize.

Thanks, and, in the parlance of the times, it's all good in the hood.

I suspect that many systems that do not claim a traditional lineage are trying to intentionally teach the basics that are similar to all Okinawan/Japanese empty-hand styles and just not include the traditions, learning Japanese, bowing, this that and the other; if their teaching is good, I can't see how that hurts anyone to learn it that way. Me, I like the tradition and using Japanese terms and so on. So everybody has to find their own path to walk I guess. And I know that many dojos make sport karate a big part of their training; again, to each their own. I like to compete, but I'm not a fanatic about it; I don't join the 'circuits' but just go to competitions when it's convenient or they're interesting. In our dojo, almost no one competes, and that's cool. We're just not that into it. One man's meat, another man's poison, etc.

Yes, I suppose so.

The question about "American Karate" first arose, in my own mind, while researching the history of kickboxing, focusing especially on the "full contact" ruleset. That is, the ruleset under which guys like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Steve Vick, and Dennis Alexio fought under. This lead to some research on the evolution of martial arts in America . . . how they got here, what came of it.

It was also inspired by one of those strange memories that people sometimes have . . . things that seem random and inconsequential but are lodged in your mind nonetheless. I remember being quite young (maybe 10? . . . I'm 30 now) and going with my dad to Red Lobster and passing by a karate school that advertised itself as American Karate. Even then I thought that was odd and for whatever reason I still remember it.

Personally, I've always preferred a more traditional approach, just as a matter of course.

I was originally looking at this place, a very traditional wado-ryu school:

http://wado-institute.com

But I really don't think it's what I'm wanting. And honestly, it kind of bothers me that I'm not totally jazzed about a totally traditional approach, but the truth is that I'm not. The fact of the matter is that I think I would have more fun at a sport oriented school that integrated more than just karate into their program, and so that's what I'm pursuing right now.

Anyway, welcome to MT.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[punisher73]

As I have often quoted from my old roommate in college..."Everyone sucks to somebody else".

Find what YOU want and do that. Martial arts are like ice cream, you can't argue that Vanilla is better than Chocolate or any other flavor. It is based on personal taste and what YOU like and want.

Modern eclectic approaches bash older traditional approaches because they stick to old tradition from an asian country and not adapt to how things are done in the US (or wherever)
Traditional approaches bash newer approaches because they didnt' stick to traditional things and missed the deeper applications etc.
Okinawans bash each other as to who really learned the "secrets" and deeper meanings of the art. In fact, I just recently read an article in CFA magazine by a high ranking holder of a certain lineage and was talking about an instructor who claimed to learn some of their style before starting his own and he questioned how much he could have really learned etc and that many Okinawans made up their own karate after the war to make money off of the GI's. Going back to the early days, you find Motobu and Funakoshi trading barbs about the quality of their karate.

And so on and so forth. Seriously, you can find almost every art on the planet being bashed by another art due to what IT percieves as the important things. None of that matters if YOU are happy with what YOU do.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And for what it's worth (this is not bashing), sport karate today is not much like the competitive karate of the 1960's in the USA. Point-sparring is a whole new beast, and it's not much like karate or self-defense; the techniques just don't apply. You can win with point-sparring techniques that would literally get you demolished if you tried them in a self-defense situation. Unlike, say, a boxer, who could probably do just fine in a street fight, a point-fighter may well apply techniques that score points in a tournament and get creamed by a street fighter.

There are other types of karate sparring, as some have mentioned. But point-sparring is prevalent. I do it myself, and I like it, but I also have to remember it's not what I'm taught in the dojo; this is something very different. If you like sport karate, then by all means go for it. And as I've mentioned, I've competed against guys from all different styles, from TKD to Isshin-Ryu to Kung Fu, to you name it; they all did well; it's not the style, it's the fighter.

But when you mentioned people like Joe Lewis, etc, I thought I should mention it ain't like that no more. Those days are over.

 

[punisher73]

I remember having a discussion about karate applications and "working" or not. This person made a comment that a particular style of karate wouldn't "work". I asked him, why he felt that and he stated that it wouldn't work in a tournament. He was partially right, the style in question was a close in style with emphasis on self-defense. But, he went on to explain that there was no jumping backfist to the top of the head like in tournaments. Huh? Yep, you are right. What I do, will not work for what you want it to do.

 

[SPX]

You can win with point-sparring techniques that would literally get you demolished if you tried them in a self-defense situation.

I've seen this. Personally, I think techniques like the jumping back fist should not score, or should score only a fraction of a point, because they're just kind of silly. When I was much younger I used to be part of a TKD org that used a stop-point format and any time someone would get me with a technique like that I thought it was ridiculous. Even as a kid I realized it was cheap.

The actual fighting benefits gained through stop-point sparring probably really lie in learning how to avoid attacks and counter-attack without getting hit. I imagine it also is useful for developing explosiveness and an ability to get in and out very quickly. I could certainly see both of these qualities as being very useful in a self-defense situation.

I will also say that I know some guys have been able to take stop-point competition experience and parlay it into success as legit kickboxers.

One example would be Raymond Daniels. You may already be familiar with him, but here's a couple of full matches:

There are other types of karate sparring, as some have mentioned.

Personally, what I'm most interested in is continuous point sparring, like ITF TKD's format. I understand that sport karate orgs like the NBL and NASKA now have divisions for continuous sparring, as does the IKF, calling it point kickboxing.

But when you mentioned people like Joe Lewis, etc, I thought I should mention it ain't like that no more. Those days are over.

Oh yeah, I know. I just like history and am interested in the history of how martial arts in America have developed, and the evolution from early point sparring to "full-contact karate" is particularly fascinating. I'm actually supposed to be talking with an official with the ISKA in the next week or so about how the PKA came to be and how it gave birth to other kickboxing orgs like the ISKA. Should be very interesting.

 

[SPX]

And so on and so forth. Seriously, you can find almost every art on the planet being bashed by another art due to what IT percieves as the important things. None of that matters if YOU are happy with what YOU do.

Yes, it's certainly true. I do some freelance writing for an MMA magazine and am a big fan and spend a lot of time on MMA forums. You better believe that there are certainly some guys on those forums who will attack anything related to traditional martial arts. In their view, if it's not muay Thai or boxing, then it's useless.

Thankfully the situation has changed a good bit since the rise of guys like Lyoto Machida, John Makdessi, and Anthony Pettis.

 

[Native]

Interesting information on the American Karate subject. I have wondered the same thing.

Regarding the other question:

If you (the general you -- any poster who wants to answer) were running a karate school, would you have a separate self-defense program in addition to standard karate training? Why or why not?

I would definitely have a separate SD class. I believe MA techs are only one component to SD. There is so much more that should be taught if a school is advertising Self Defense instruction.

Regards,

Adam

 

[SPX]

I would definitely have a separate SD class. I believe MA techs are only one component to SD. There is so much more that should be taught if a school is advertising Self Defense instruction.

Like what? What would make a well-rounded self-defense program?

 

[ballen0351]

Like what? What would make a well-rounded self-defense program?

If I were to teach a class for self defense and self defense only it would focus very heavily on firearms and other defensive weapons like Tasers, OC Spray, Ect. Physical hand to hand combat should be avoided if you can. Also much time would be spent on situational awarness. Many attacks I see could have ben avoided for the if the victim was more alert. I cant count the number of victims that say I knew something didnt feel right or look right before they were attacked.

 

[SPX]

I agree regarding firearms. I'm 5'6", 150 lbs. so I'm not going to kickbox with somebody on the street unless I have to. I actually took an Intro to Firearms course at a local place a few weeks ago. Got my eye on the little Ruger LCP.

 

[Native]

Like what? What would make a well-rounded self-defense program?

Ballen has some very good points.

Self defense is a broad subject that includes more than being able to defend when things turn physical. I believe the best self defense is to recognize and avoid trouble; and that is an entirely different skill set that is often overlooked. Then there are post incident considerations, especially when law enforcement is involved.

I fear that a lot of people have a false security because of their MA training. I know this was the case for me during my first couple years. Fortunately I was able to educate myself and adjust and supplement my training.

 

[SPX]

Then there are post incident considerations, especially when law enforcement is involved.

I hear you on that. That's actually one of my greatest fears, getting into a self-defense situation where I make it out alive and unhurt, but end up in prison because a jury decided I didn't do it quite right.

I fear that a lot of people have a false security because of their MA training. I know this was the case for me during my first couple years. Fortunately I was able to educate myself and adjust and supplement my training.

So what about actual hand-to-hand techniques? When it comes to traditional styles, if your focus is on SD--or if you were teaching a class that was exclusively on SD--what would you accept and what would you reject? For instance, I assume we can all agree that a hook kick is best left to the ring, not the street.

 

[Native]

Yeah, that would be my luck too... victorious against the mugger, but in jail anyway.

So what about actual hand-to-hand techniques? When it comes to traditional styles, if your focus is on SD--or if you were teaching a class that was exclusively on SD--what would you accept and what would you reject? For instance, I assume we can all agree that a hook kick is best left to the ring, not the street.

There is a lot I love about traditional styles. A whole lot. I love training & teaching them so I would not choose to only teach "Self Defense"; I would include both and I think both can co-exist. Many traditional techniques will work in SD situations, but sometimes require tweaking. Perhaps this is the real essence of MA anyway.. to be able to learn, then unlearn and just "do". I think when applying TMA Techs to SD you need to train like a real street fight. If someone grabs you, then they usually are not just grabbing you; they probably are hitting you also. There is a lot of force involved and that needs to be accounted for. You will be attacked hard, fast and most likely sloppy.

More to the point of the question you asked.. Boxing & Kick Boxing (need good striking), Judo (balance and body manipulation) and a little bit of ground work (enough to get out of a bad situation and back on your feet) I think are great bases for a SD program.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've seen this. Personally, I think techniques like the jumping back fist should not score, or should score only a fraction of a point, because they're just kind of silly. When I was much younger I used to be part of a TKD org that used a stop-point format and any time someone would get me with a technique like that I thought it was ridiculous. Even as a kid I realized it was cheap.

The actual fighting benefits gained through stop-point sparring probably really lie in learning how to avoid attacks and counter-attack without getting hit. I imagine it also is useful for developing explosiveness and an ability to get in and out very quickly. I could certainly see both of these qualities as being very useful in a self-defense situation.

Yes and no. I agree, there are some benefits to even point-sparring (and hey, I do it, so I'm not dissing it). But speaking for myself, I'm more of a counter-puncher. Take one to give one. I actually like to invite the first blow, but take it the way I want it; then trap and blast. Not really something you can do with point-sparring.

In fact, we were practicing after training in the dojo last night; we have a young karateka who is wanting to go to his first competition and do point-sparring. So we drew up a circle and I sparred with him. I threw a roundhouse kick and he blocked it with his elbow. The kick left me wide open for a counter, but if I know I'm going to score, I can drop my guard and bet all my marbles. But the corner judge called 'Yame!' and called the point for me. It was a great learning moment, because it's so much like what really happens. I knew he blocked my kick; he knew he blocked my kick, but the corner judge saw something different and called it the way she saw it. So first, no counter-punch; the action stopped when the judge called my kick for a point, my sloppy technique with no guard up which would have gotten me murdered on the street worked anyway. And he also learned that you can win by losing and lose by winning in point sparring. The judges can only call what they see; and they're often just black belts who have been drafted into the tournament for a free lunch; they're not getting paid, they're not 'trained' to be judges, and they make mistakes.

So getting back to SD versus point-sparring...

On the street, I'd probably never thrown a roundhouse kick.
If I did, I'd make sure I wasn't leaving myself open for a counter.
If I did, I'd throw it as hard as I could so that hopefully even a thrown block would be demolished.
If I threw it, no one would tell us to stop and give someone a point.

I agree that continuous sparring is a bit more lifelike, but still not like 'real' self-defense. Points are still points; they just don't get tallied up until the end, so you can counterpunch and take one to give one. But it still depends on what judges see; and they can be fooled or just make mistakes. All it really does is take away the ability to use a technique with no defenses, since doing that will get you creamed. Better, but still not SD.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[SPX]

Best way to do it. Good luck in your search.

Well, I did it . . . I went and checked out the Pinnacle Martial Arts school. To be honest, I'm kind of disappointed. I hate that too, because I had high hopes for this place.

I believe that the instructor is legit. I talked to him and specifically asked him about his lineage, as we discussed. He told me who his instructor was. I didn't recognize the name, but apparently it was his instructor's philosophy that his students should test under other instructors, and some of those names I did recognize, like Jhoon Rhee and Tak Kubota.

Also, it's clear that his school DOES have a track record for producing students who do well in sport karate comps, as he had a framed letter from the NBL recognizing his school (in 2010) as the #1 school that competes in their league, based upon number of championship wins during the 2010 competition season. (The letter listed the top 25, with schools all over the US and even in Mexico.)

These are the positives. Now the negatives:

One, too many kids. I was already disappointed that there was not an adults-only class, but I was hoping that there would at least be a sizable percentage of adults. I sat through the white/yellow belt class and there were two grown men, maybe three. I then waited for the orange/blue belt class to see if the situation would improve. In fact, it got worse. There were a handful of women, but not a single adult male in the whole class. Later, I asked the instructor and he said he had 9 men enrolled at his school. I assume at least a few (perhaps most?) of them are parents of younger students. Considering the school's reputation as a competition hot house, I was hoping there would be a group of adults who were clearly serious . . . steely-eyed . . . machines of precision and excellence. Alas, it was not to be.

Also, too much to learn in too little time. This place teaches both full systems of TKD and Shotokan, weaponry, a self-defense system created by one of the owners, and competitive sparring . . . all in 4 days a week, 45 minutes per class. In my opinion, they should drop the TKD and increase the class times to an hour and 15 minutes or, even better, an hour and a half.

Just as an aside, I asked him if the Shotokan is "traditional Shotokan." He said, no, not really. The movements of the forms are the same, but the ways in which they're performed have been tweaked so that they'll show better in competition.

All in all, I got a good feeling--positive energy--from the instructor. But there were definitely things that clashed with my sensibilities. As I sat there and watched all the little kids with their multi-colored kamas and bos, I just had a feeling that it was all superficial and everything was made of bubblegum.

With that said, I was told that it was kind of a take-it-easy class since last weekend was a big competition weekend, and weapons night might not have been the best night to go. I'm debating over whether or not I should check out another class and keep an open mind.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Fascinating report, thanks. You might as well know that most tournaments are for young people, mostly under the age of 16 (my sensei says that boys quit when they get car keys and discover girls). The idea of adults sparring is pretty much gone. Obviously, there are some adults who spar, like myself for example; but believe me, when I go to a tournament, by the time they've gotten to my age group, it's late in the day or early in the evening, and 500+ kids have come and gone in the meantime. By the time I compete, we're down to maybe 20 to 50 adults who compete, besides the black belts who are often instructors and still compete.

I don't wish to seem negative, but competition seems to go hand in hand these days with Little League baseball and soccer and cheerleading. It's a thing for the parents to get their kids involved in, it's Day Care, it's a place for the parents to live out fantasies of their own childhoods, and in many cases, it's just a belt factory (I'm not saying that the place you visited was any such). One reason so many people who are serious martial artists eschew competition is that it has become so deeply intertwined with the "my kid has a trophy" karate-mom thing.

That is why many of the tournaments today have point-sparring, kata, and now, CREATIVE kata and weapons, often set to music, and involving acrobatics and weapons flying high in the air, with choreography, flashing LED bo's, and a show with everything but Yul Brynner. It's for the kids, and more specifically, for their parents.

I don't want to suggest to you what to do, but if you're really wanting to compete, and there are a small cadre of adults who do, then you are probably going to have to keep on looking. Consider also learning a traditional style that does not emphasize competition necessarily; nothing stops you from going to a tournament on your own.

For me, the dividing line is this. If a dojo has their name on the back of their gi's, or has 'team colors' or a special uniform they wear to compete in that is unique to their dojo, that's less of what I'm really interested in. A school patch is fine. Special fighting silks for your dojo? Not so much. Then it seems more of a recruiting tool for a business and less like a sport.