all ma are sport

[d1jinx]

Ok let me aplogyze, I post wrong, not all MA are sport, sorry but my english sometimes s.....k, simply my brain is clear but some times it's difficult to put my way of thinking in other languaje.

Most of the actual MA have the sport side, and some of the MA emphatizes on sport leaving the self defense beside.

Talking about TKD, there are some dojangs that emphatized on MA/SD but there are so many dojangs where the learning/training is for competition mostly. The same aplyes to another "MAS" like Karate or Judo to name just few.

The whole asumption that people and other MA's have on TKD is that is a heavy contact sport, and that's because again of the emphasys WTF/KUKIWON has put on the sport side of TKD. But please let me take again this... if TKD is a heavy or full contact sport could be work on the streets? in certain degree I must say yes.

A nasty roundhouse kick to the hogu can drop a BG in the streets wearing nothing but a jacket, a nice good back kick even with the hogu can take our breath easily so what about no wearing hogu?? A few weeks ago I got a nice but not to strong back kick above my kidney and I have to back off my partner, if this kick was sperformed right and with all the intention of hurt I would lying on the floor in great pain.

So please forgive me for my post, not all MA are sport, our MA the TKD needs to go to it's rooths and to pay attention more on SD than just competition winning combos by points.

Manny

Nothing wrong with your post Manny.

Some people are just sensitive. They take offense when you call it "sport" or "SD".
By this definition.... I TOO think ALL MA ARE sport.

a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b. A particular form of this activity.
2. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
​

Any dojang or jo you walk in has rules. and ANY form of sparring would be "engaging in competitively" weather its for practice or a medal/trophy.

even doing your forms, you are competing against others in the class or yourself to be the best you can be.

And all MA involves physical exertion.

So yes manny, all MA are sport.

 

[Joab]

Save for the "maming or death" I really like what I am reading here.

Pure self-defense and sport are mutually exclusive of one another. I guess except for the athletic conditioning and winning attitude.

Well he believed only techniques that maimed or killed worked in a serious self defense emergency. Others disagree, that was what he believed, kill or be killed was essentially his philosophy. And of course you can't use such techniques in a sporting contest, which he would wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[Joab]

Ok let me aplogyze, I post wrong, not all MA are sport, sorry but my english sometimes s.....k, simply my brain is clear but some times it's difficult to put my way of thinking in other languaje.

Its alright Manny, your English is far better than my Spanish

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sport is a way to practice within a confined rule set specific techniques against resisting opponents who are not your training partners in an effort to attain some kind of prize, be it a trophy, a medal, a title, or just bragging rights.

There is no martial art that contains zero techniques that can be used in a sportive setting. Even ones that are entirely intended for permanent maiming or the death of your opponent have non-killing techniques, certainly enough to make a sport out of (it doesn't take very many).

Even arts that involve deadly weapons can be made into a sport practiced against resisting opponents. Fencing, kendo and paintball are good examples of this.

Even using deadly weapons, a nonlethal sport can be practiced. Archery and target shooting are good examples.

Restricting your target area and technique set in a specific situation is not dumbing down your art. It is the use of techniques appropriate to the event in a competitive setting.

Training exclusively for tournament fighting, such as only for WTF sport TKD is dumbing down an art, or at least teaching only a narrow part of that art.

There is nothing inherently wrong with sport in the martial arts. There is really nothing wrong with a sport only school, so long as they are up front about it; If I pay to learn the full Kukki TKD system and only learn straight punches, a selection of kicks for competition, and footwork, timing, and distance, then I am being ripped off. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with what I am learning, but because it wasn't what I was what I had been told I would get when I agreed to pay for lessons.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

Sport TKD is great!

Self Defense is great!

Forms are great!

TKD is Great!

Thanks for the debate otherwise the board is not compelling.

Everyone has an opinion. I am glad we don't agree! The more we talk about things the better they will get ultimately.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Nothing wrong with your post Manny.

Some people are just sensitive. They take offense when you call it "sport" or "SD".
By this definition.... I TOO think ALL MA ARE sport.

a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b. A particular form of this activity.
2. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
​

Any dojang or jo you walk in has rules. and ANY form of sparring would be "engaging in competitively" weather its for practice or a medal/trophy.

even doing your forms, you are competing against others in the class or yourself to be the best you can be.

And all MA involves physical exertion.

So yes manny, all MA are sport.

WRONG.

AGAIN- there are many martial arts styles that do not "spar" and do not "compete"

Aikido
Iaido
etc.

 

[Joab]

There is no martial art that contains zero techniques that can be used in a sportive setting. Even ones that are entirely intended for permanent maiming or the death of your opponent have non-killing techniques, certainly enough to make a sport out of (it doesn't take very many).

You may be right in that there are some non lethal or non maiming techniques in the combative form I'm thinking about, but those are used mostly to distract before closing with a technique that is intended to maim or kill. They would not work in a sporting venue at all nor would they be legal in any sporting venue. The system I'm thinking about was developed for combat, not sport, it is not possible to "sporterize it" at all, and that is from the founder of the system. He put the whole thing together, so he should know what he is talking about. I'll even go out on a limb a bit and provide a website where you can ask him directly www.americancombato.com you can find out about the system in detail by checking his second website www.seattlecombatives.com Email him personally, study the syllabus yourself than get back to me as to how to "sporterize" this system.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am going to preface that I agree with you.

Unfortunately, people have proven that no matter how seemingly impossible or absurd an idea may be, someone can find a way to do it no matter how unsuited it is.

There is no martial art that contains zero techniques that can be used in a sportive setting. Even ones that are entirely intended for permanent maiming or the death of your opponent have non-killing techniques, certainly enough to make a sport out of (it doesn't take very many).

You may be right in that there are some non lethal or non maiming techniques in the combative form I'm thinking about, but those are used mostly to distract before closing with a technique that is intended to maim or kill. They would not work in a sporting venue at all nor would they be legal in any sporting venue.

I wasn't actually thinking of Combato; I just happened to like the permanent maiming and death part. But since you mention it...

The system I'm thinking about was developed for combat, not sport, it is not possible to "sporterize it" at all, and that is from the founder of the system. He put the whole thing together, so he should know what he is talking about. I'll even go out on a limb a bit and provide a website where you can ask him directly www.americancombato.com you can find out about the system in detail by checking his second website www.seattlecombatives.com Email him personally, study the syllabus yourself than get back to me as to how to "sporterize" this system.

I am sure that it does not lend itself to sport, but it is possible to add a sportive element to anything physical. Now whether or not it is a good idea is another story. Some arts just don't work well as sport because the finished product does not resemble the art.

Like taekwondo, which has a plethora of techniques not allowed in competition and is pared down to the the moves that the WTF wishes to showcase (primarily high kicks, which I consider fairly poor choices for SD in most, though not all cases), someone could take those nonlethal techniques and put together a set of rules.

The sport may be lousy. Or it may be fun, but it would look nothing like (nor would it really be) Combato. All it takes is for some guy or gal to learn the system, open a school, and decide that competition is good for the students regardless of what the founder has said. Especially once they figure out that there may be money involved.

Now as I said, could and should are not the same.

WTF sport taekwondo really does not look like taekwondo. Twin Fist likes to say that it isn't taekwondo. And given that what is presented in taekwondo forms does not resemble in any way what is presented in WTF sparring, he is correct on a technical level. Approach, positioning, choices of techniques, attack and defense strategy, and most importantly, intent, are all different.

As you are dealing with the founder who is a single individual, Sport Combato will not appear on the horizon ever: a comparatively small group of martial arts have a pretty good lock on popular martial sport, so you won't see sport Combato even after he is gone.

But the WTF proves that if you either have the organizational clout behind or have ownership of the name, you can pretty much apply it to anything no matter how absurd.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

WRONG.

AGAIN- there are many martial arts styles that do not "spar" and do not "compete"

Aikido
Iaido
etc.

Yeah, but if you don't spar or compete or pressure test your techniques in some manner, can it still be called a martial art?

Edit: I just want to add to this that this is intended to be tongue in cheek. Please don't send me hate mail.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If so, I would have to disagree. Aikido, Aikijutsu and Iaido come to mind as arts that are nowhere near being a sport.

Yeah, but if you don't spar or compete or pressure test your techniques in some manner, can it still be called a martial art?

Edit: I just want to add to this that this is intended to be tongue in cheek. Please don't send me hate mail.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an aikido org that does spar and compete?

Another question is do iaido practitioners do any sort of forms competition? If so, then this would technically be sport, the same way that figure skating or gymnastics is sport.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

The Ultimate in all Combat
Total Self-Defense Training!​

The above phase is what truely tickles me, unless you have a super weapon that even the military does not have there is no ultimate in any self defense. The best we have is a way that we expect will work if everything goes as planned. Why is it people always use the term Ultimate or real SD when what they really teach is practical SD and they hope that each individual can execute the moves when or if the time ever comes.​

The last thing I would like to add is it is very true about all MA being a sport, unless once again you are using real live blades and weapons and actually have no rule set at all. See anything that is physical and has a rule set can be consider a sport, because real SD has no rules and it never will.​

THE STUDENT WHO MASTERS THE WHITE BELT COURSE HAS LEARNED MUCH MORE REALISTIC SELF-DEFENSE AND CLOSE COMBAT THAN MOST BLACK BELTS IN TRADITIONAL SYSTEMS EVER LEARN!

the above is even more of a joke to me simply because they say so, too many people want to be the end to all and this is no exception to me. I a[[laud what they are promoting but to be that self induldge is truely not for me. A traditional system tought by well qualify people will have alot of what they talk about.

NOTE: BLACK BELT LEVEL RANKS, LIKE ALL OTHER, MAY BE REVOKED (AS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THE CASE OF TWO INDIVIDUALS WHOSE PERSONAL BEHAVIOR, ATTITUDE AND EGREGIOUSLY EVIL PERSONAL BETRAYAL HAS MADE IT NECESSARY TO DO). THIS IS TO PROTECT THE MARITAL-ARTS-SEEKING PUBLIC, AND TO SAFEGUARD THE INTEGRITY OF THIS SYSTEM.

Just to add to this one can never take away what someone has learned so by revoking rank it tells me they really never did there homework in the first place because if they was teaching and watching those individuals they would have seen certain things wat before BB. So why revoke, to make it look like you really care about society or to admit there is flaws in the system like everything else in the world.

 

[granfire]

The Ultimate in all Combat
Total Self-Defense Training!​

The above phase is what truely tickles me, unless you have a super weapon that even the military does not have there is no ultimate in any self defense. The best we have is a way that we expect will work if everything goes as planned. Why is it people always use the term Ultimate or real SD when what they really teach is practical SD and they hope that each individual can execute the moves when or if the time ever comes.​

The last thing I would like to add is it is very true about all MA being a sport, unless once again you are using real live blades and weapons and actually have no rule set at all. See anything that is physical and has a rule set can be consider a sport, because real SD has no rules and it never will.​

THE STUDENT WHO MASTERS THE WHITE BELT COURSE HAS LEARNED MUCH MORE REALISTIC SELF-DEFENSE AND CLOSE COMBAT THAN MOST BLACK BELTS IN TRADITIONAL SYSTEMS EVER LEARN!

the above is even more of a joke to me simply because they say so, too many people want to be the end to all and this is no exception to me. I a[[laud what they are promoting but to be that self induldge is truely not for me. A traditional system tought by well qualify people will have alot of what they talk about.

You read the adds in BB magazine again....or the banner adds...

 

[punisher73]

Terry, I love you brother, but you have clearly spent too much time on that olympic style ****. You have lost your grip on self defense

SELF DEFENSE is about just that.

I dont teach my people to be agressive in anything

BUT

in self defense? There are no rules.

When the rubber meets the road, when it is DO or DIE, my students will not die. Throat, groin, eyes, hell, jam a thumb into an eye socket, bite off a nose, rip off an ear.

I teach them that anything goes when you are in fear for your life.

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

I WILL NOT be a victim and niether will my students. But then we are martial artists, not sport athletes with our little pull over tops trying to score points....

"restraint is a necessity! "

for those willing to die, sure.

I am not willing to die, i train to defend myself and others and if i have to kill to accomplish that, i will do so with no hesitation and no regrets. And I will give the students under me the knowledge to defend themselves.

I am not a fool, or course I teach them to limit the response to the threat involved, but once they are in fear for thier lives? there are no rules.

Dark, TKD IS deadly and CAN be used on the streets, Korean Kickboxing on the other hand is a worthless waste of time, self defense wise.


Gran? you started it so dont cry when ya get it.

Horse pucky. This post shows that you have never been in a real fight outside the dojo. Not all fights are life and death, and there are some fights that you CAN'T walk away from and are not life threatening. If you practice self-defense, how do YOU define it? How do you train your female students if it's a drunk co-worker who is getting a little over friendly at an office party and grabs your wrist? What if it's an aggressive boyfriend on a date? What if it's a male student and someone grabs his arm as he tries to walk away?

There are MANY levels of force, and they all have rules, called LAWS. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6? Ok, if you goal is to protect yourself and your family, how are you going to do that when you are serving a prison sentence because you gouged out your attacker's eyes because he pushed you and called you a name and you thought he might be getting ready to punch you?

 

[punisher73]

I know it can be used on the streets, as it can be used in sport. I train in TKD for BOTH reasons and have been doing so for over 20 years. You are just sounding like these crazy instructors who refuse to spar in their style because it is "t3h d3@dly". If you can't pressure test it, how do you know it will work?

Korean Kickboxing has a form of pressure testing it, in my opinion, making it a great way to practise SD. As a traditional TKDer, I train my SD in attacking targets that are illegal in sport, but I don't forget them when I am training for sport.

Agreed, I don't know how many people couldn't hit the attacker in the face with a regular punch, let alone having spent the time to condition the fingers to spear the throat or eyes and do damage without breaking their own fingers if they do miss.

 

[dancingalone]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an aikido org that does spar and compete?

Tomiki style aikido practice randori and hold competitions too.

 

[d1jinx]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an aikido org that does spar and compete?

Another question is do iaido practitioners do any sort of forms competition? If so, then this would technically be sport, the same way that figure skating or gymnastics is sport.

Daniel

Daniel, Your right.

I have also seen Cutting Competitions, you know..... where people swing swords and cut things and get "judged on technique and precision".... along with forms, ....
Sooo.... someone must not get out enough.

sarcasm not directed at you Daniel. just those who dont see past their own front door.

 

[granfire]

Considering Chess does/did qualify as sport, and so does hunting and fishing...and these do not require any type of physical fitness, I think calling MAs of any shape or form, even if they don't translate into a competition format is excusable.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Tomiki style aikido practice randori and hold competitions too.

That was the one. I could not remember the name. Thanks!

Daniel

 

[Steve]

Daniel, Your right.

I have also seen Cutting Competitions, you know..... where people swing swords and cut things and get "judged on technique and precision".... along with forms, ....
Sooo.... someone must not get out enough.

sarcasm not directed at you Daniel. just those who dont see past their own front door.

Jesus, guys. What part of tongue in cheek don't you get? It was a joke, for pete's sake!

 

[granfire]

Jesus, guys. What part of tongue in cheek don't you get? It was a joke, for pete's sake!

Full moon, don't pay it no mind!