Aikido.. The reality?

[drop bear]

Or is it just for the Bundy in a can?

Well you know what they say about Bundy.

 

[drop bear]

Then fight, ultimately, all of martial arts is what you can personally get to work, under stress, while another human does mean things to you. If you are not in a profession that requires you to be proficient in unarmed combat, then you are only training up to that "higher standard" as a method of personal gratification, which is fine. In the end, you can watch all the videos you want, in a real confrontation its going to come down to whatever you can use at your lowest level of training.

Not really. It depends what you are looking at.

If systems produce consistent results that is looking at the system. Which is what we are discussing.

People constantly try to confuse this by adding in the inherent qualities of the individual. But it is a different discussion.

I mean if we had an argument about who would win a fight between a 150kg Aikidoka and a 50kg MMA er then absolutely the individual is inherent in that discussion.

But if we are discussing function or self defence or fighting abilities of martial arts. Then we need to look at how much potential we can squeeze out of the person we have.

Because that is the function of training.

Then we can look at ourselves and decide what fundamentally needs to change to achieve the goals we want. And then subjectively whether or not we actually want to do those things.

 

[dunc]

Something I noticed with your video, good show of the techniques IMO, one thing I was taught which helps with leverage is what we called "tracing the C" when you go to execute the lock/throw, you trace an exaggerated "C" with your rear foot clockwise or counter clockwise depending on positioning but away from your opponent, in the direction you want them to go. and this helps provide more force/leverage/momentum as you roll through the technique. In the video, my one critique is that his stance is very closed and he visibly struggles to get leverage at some points. Otherwise, yes, the way he defends from the opposite side punches with movement and body positioning is great also.

Hi
Don’t want to derail the discussion, but could you share an example video of the “C” concept (can’t quite visualise it)
Thanks
D

 

[drop bear]

And this is why the rokus thing is so telling.

He trained to do Aikido for ten years or something. And at the end of that training he could not do the things he was told he would be able to do.

He trained MMA, BJJ and whatever for about a year. And was able to do the things he was told he would be able to do.

And the aims are are pretty similar if you think of them as meta.

Could he punch people, defend punches, throw people on the ground, apply submissions. Could he use someone's weight against them, create a mechanical advantage to become stronger than his opponent. Could he face an unknown opponent in a full contact fight.

All this basic fighting fundamentals that are necessary to win a confrontation.

This is some really simple ideas made really complicated by clever marketing so that people get confused with what they are actually achieving.

 

[drop bear]

Hi
Don’t want to derail the discussion, but could you share an example video of the “C” concept (can’t quite visualise it)
Thanks
D

At 1:20

 

[drop bear]

Also, this is the issue with Atemi not being taught in Aikido anymore. Two or three strikes BEFORE the technique makes the landing/execution much more plausible, also, if you lose the hold, you should be practicing to move straight into strikes, I never see other schools do that. I intercepted the jab but missed the frontal/revers grab for an arm bar? I should be throwing knees and elbows since I'm still inside your guard.

The problem there is you don't get free shots. He is striking back.

At which point your grappling has to be better or you will get out struck.

 

[drop bear]

Rokas 15 years wasn't 15 good years. I can say "I have ten years experience" but that doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does. How many hours a week was he training

I think it was full time. Live in student in Japan ran his own dojo.

I will find out.

1:30

 

[Cynik75]

Rokas asked WC, AIkido and KM people for footages of succesfull application of WC, Aikido and KM in free fight. Only chunners sent right responses (WC adepts using succesfully WC techniques and principles in fight).
From Aikido side Dan The Wolfmand send angry response that he used aikido techniques in many fights - but he is long time catch wrestler, MMA practicioner ( and other grapplings arts adept) so he know the fundamentals of fighting wery well what allows him to use aikido in fight.
Dear Shatteredzen - one picture is worth more than thousand words. Just do the same - post a video of fighting aikidokas. If BJJist, wrestlers, judokas, mmaists can apply aikido in fight why aikidokas cant? (except of some Tomiki guys).

BTW Rokas did not promote himself to aikido black belt. Somebody higher ranked in aikido community recognized him as skilled enough to be BB. It is not Rokas problem, it is rather system problem in aikido..

 

[jobo]

I fight drunks because I get paid to.

I do MMA because they are the gold standard of fighting and so get the most bang for buck.

but you dont do mma do you, you just train there, it doesnt matter if it's the gold stand if fighting or not, you dont fight to any measurable standard at all, just like me

 

[jobo]

Yeah but there is a base of at least something physical you can gauge the system with.

Exept in martial arts where it is mostly anecdotes dogma and misconception. And it is deliberately that way.

It is like diet and fitness. There are some consistent themes that work. And then there is the willingness to actually do those things.

One is objective one is subjective.

but the act of gauging is its self subjective, I dont know how to make it simpler for you

if cosmology for instance has a high degree of subjectivity in it why does the db science of fight assessment not ?

 

[drop bear]

but you dont do mma do you, you just train there, it doesnt matter if it's the gold stand if fighting or not, you dont fight to any measurable standard at all, just like me

You are confusing my standard with the standard of training I receive.

They are two different things.

 

[drop bear]

but the act of gauging is its self subjective, I dont know how to make it simpler for you

if cosmology for instance has a high degree of subjectivity in it why does the db science of fight assessment not ?

There is nothing to suggest cosmology is anything like martial arts, and so is ultimately irrelevant.

I can definitely make the case that there are objective results within martial arts.

There are systems that consistently out perform. There are techniques that are high or low percentage.

There are things that demonstratively work. Regardless as to how I personally feel about them.

I am not sure why you keep bringing up extra random factors that don't really apply.

 

[jobo]

You are confusing my standard with the standard of training I receive.

They are two different things.

but the standard of the training is irelivant if your ownly capable of being sub standard.

that said, your not competing at mma, that makes you and I equal on the only actual objective measure you have arrived at so far

 

[jobo]

There is nothing to suggest cosmology is anything like martial arts, and so is ultimately irrelevant.

I can definitely make the case that there are objective results within martial arts.

There are systems that consistently out perform. There are techniques that are high or low percentage.

There are things that demonstratively work. Regardless as to how I personally feel about them.

I am not sure why you keep bringing up extra random factors that don't really apply.

ok,give me some of these objective measures that dont require subjectivity, to decided which measures to use, how the measuring is to be done and what weighting you give to it

 

[drop bear]

ok,give me some of these objective measures that dont require subjectivity, to decided which measures to use, how the measuring is to be done and what weighting you give to it

Ok. How many days a week can you train?

Sorry how many days a week is training available.

Because here we have an objective measure that if one place trains 6 days a week and one trains two days a week. The one that trains 6 is offering a better service.

 

[drop bear]

but the standard of the training is irelivant if your ownly capable of being sub standard.

that said, your not competing at mma, that makes you and I equal on the only actual objective measure you have arrived at so far

Not at all. If I looked at the training as a whole. Then I would look at everyone who is competing under that system of training.

 

[jobo]

Ok. How many days a week can you train?

that's an objective measure of why mma is the best system?

I'm not sure your actualy following this

 

[drop bear]

that's an objective measure of why mma is the best system?

I'm not sure your actualy following this

Yes. It is precisely why.

This is the schedule for Tiger muay thai. Which is a premium MMA training facility.

Training Schedule - Tiger Muay Thai & MMA Training Camp, Phuket, Thailand

It objectively offers a better service.

 

[jobo]

Not at all. If I looked at the training as a whole. Then I would look at everyone who is competing under that system of training.

but that doesnt seem to be getting you to the objective gold standard you proclaimed

it's like buying a sports car you cant drive properly coz good driver own them, therefor it will make you good , that really is not objective

 

[drop bear]

but that doesnt seem to be getting you to the objective gold standard you proclaimed

it's like buying a sports car you cant drive coz good driver own them, therefor it will make you good , that really is not objective

No. Objectively the sports car is better.

Subjectively you can't drive it.

If you put the same driver in different cars he will perform differently.