Aikido.. The reality?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by JowGaWolf, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I went spent a few hours on you tube trying to find old sparring videos of Aikido. This was done with my understanding that Fighting is Abrasive. Which basically means that it's rough and it that it doesn't flow smooth like what we often see in Aikido or Tai Chi. When these martial arts are practice they often look as if they are flowing and easy. I think this training concept is similar to Tai Chi /Tajiquan. The free flowing and easy look seems to be how you learn to relax and to flow. It is not fighting, and it's not how the fighting is supposed to look. I also think this is where people screw up with the systems and get it wrong.

    So since I don't actually know anything about Aikido, I decided to use my very limited Tajiquan knowledge to make assumption and guesses, and to find some old footage of Aikido Sparring.

    Here's the first first one. I found. To me this looks like Aikido concepts applied and it looks abrasive. It doesn't flow the same way that we see it in a demo. I personally think the "Flow" part is something that you have to experienced. I know that's the case with Muay thai. To the outside it may look like a simple clinch but to the person in the clinch it could feel like your balance is easily being robbed from you before the throw occurs.
    This is what I expect to see in a fight on the street (the struggle)



    In contrast. We can see that he's trying "flow" similar to what they do in training and demos (not sparring). You can also see that he's uncomfortable with punches coming towards him. It's clear that he doesn't quite know how to handle them. From a function perspective it would make sense that Aikido would have some kind of striking or understanding of "how to enter into grappling"


    Here's another example. Not the best, but he's got one arm. What you do see here is punching as a way to enter into grappling. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it. Sanda does it. So I'm just following some of the things we already know.


    2nd Video Same guy,



    Thoughts?
     
  2. Oni_Kadaki

    Oni_Kadaki Green Belt

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    I've trained at various Aikido schools for about 8-9 years now as circumstances allowed, and have done my best to integrate Aikido into my other training, especially Karate. Traditional Aikido by itself, which a beloved Sensei and friend of mine once described as a "dance-like martial art," is not generally conducive to combat or self-defense against anyone with any degree of skill. However, what I've found is that the techniques can be very useful with modification, and that the principles have applicability across systems (with the caveat that I've mostly trained Karate and Jiu Jitsu derivatives).

    I've found that, if you're trying to force an Aikido technique, you will be sorely disappointed... much like in practice. However, I have made Aikido work in sparring in both Karate and, most recently, Judo, by capitalizing on opportunities that I may not have noticed without having trained in Aikido. In Karate, I took down my opponent with kokyu nage twice in the same match (almost three times, she was pissed), and have pulled off irimi nage and possibly ikkyo (it's been awhile). In Judo, my opponent, a judoka who has been training in the martial arts for about twice as long as I have, leaned a little too far forward, and I capitalized on the resulting vulnerability and took him down with a highly-modified kaite nage. Is this to say that Aikido is secretly the end-all, be-all combative art? Hell no, but I do believe myself a more competent martial artist for having studied it, and I believe it rounds out my skillset, which also includes, to some degree or other, striking and groundfighting.

    Edit: forgot to mention that one of my first Aikido instructors was retired NYPD. He switched to Aikido from Karate when he realized that throwing kicks with a gun belt on was not necessarily practical, and he found that it made more sense when trying to control suspects than a striking art. It worked for him, and the class where he showed me how he modified it to work for him was one of the most terrifying classes I've ever had!
     
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  3. Cynik75

    Cynik75 Orange Belt

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  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Why is it we think everything is an MMA ring these days?

    As to taijiquan flowing, I think you missed the concept as to what is meant when you are talking flowing in taijiquan. But that is not surprising, since so few actually know anything about it, as it was applied, before it became a moving meditation. Taijiquan has similarities to aikido, but it is most certainly not aikido, not as concerned about the circle. But don't get me wrong. I like aikido and once, sparring a female aikidoka, got jointlocked and thrown to the floor....and it was awesome.... by the way, it was on a hard floor, no padding...and it was still awesome
     
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  5. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Because an mma ring is the closest thing we have to live fighting, short of actual fighting in the street.

    The rules that are there don't change much about the situation. Those that say 'if only I could bite and eye gouge things would be different' are kidding themselves.
     
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  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sanda is a good format too. It has everything except the ground game.



    IMO, no matter how many rounds that you may have gone through the following match, the experience that you have received will not be realistic.



     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This falls right in line with comments that I made in another thread about the 2 groups of people. Those who train for function and those who do not. It's becoming clearer that Aikido wasn't explore very deeply. I still think he doesn't understand, because he keeps trying for force what he wants to do instead of using what's available. I wonder how many opportunities did he pass up by trying to focus on what he wanted to do, instead of focusing on what his opponent's openings would allow him to do.

    When I spar, I know that I will throw some basic Kung Fu, but beyond that I cannot determine before hand what I will do. To do so means that I have to force my technique. If my opponent never stand in a good position for e to throw him, then me trying to throw him is the same as me forcing a technique.

    I can only use the knowledge that I have to understand other things. Taijiquan is all that I currently have. If I was taught correctly then I have a few videos of where the "concept of flowing" as I was taught have been applied. I would have to show the videos and then have you are someone else say how far I'm off in terms of Aikido and Taijiquan.

    Probably because out of all the combat sports out there. It's the only one that has the least amount of restrictions.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The fact that BJJ practitioners are trying to understand the techniques speaks volumes. I don't think they would have done so if they truly believed that there was no validity in the techniques.

    I think people who do functional things have interests in functional things. In other words, if they believe that it's not functional, then they aren't going to spend time on trying to "decode it"
     
  9. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not quite ...

     
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  10. Yokozuna514

    Yokozuna514 Black Belt

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    Ha, ha, at first I thought I was watching some LARPing on steroids but those guys are going pretty hard with what sounds like real sticks and wearing basically tshirts. Is there a ruleset that you know of for this because it doesn't seem like anyone wants to main their opponent but a twack from a 3 sectional staff being whirled about at top speed would not tickle with just a shirt on.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Yep I forgot about those guys. They definitely have the least amount of restrictions.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Because it is about the best scientific method to determine if stuff works without crippling people.

    So even if say you wanted to really test knife defence for example. It would make sense to put on mma gloves go in to a padded sealed room and allow punching kicking and grappling.

    So that MMA dynamic basically becomes the start point of a discussion.
     
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    But sort of. It is the same concept.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It depends. There are things that shouldn't work that do. So you test them to see so that you know one way or the other.

    The Russian wrist snap works. But it looks every bit like an Aikido move that shouldn't.

    Backflip single leg defence works. But you would have a very hard time convincing someone who hadn't seen it.
     
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  15. Yokozuna514

    Yokozuna514 Black Belt

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    Ummm, I'm not sure I would go so far as to agree with MMA being the best scientific method to determine if stuff works especially as it would pertain to knife defence. That's a whole different kettle of fish that probably doesn't intersect with MMA gear, tactic or cage. I don't practice FMA but I have some experience with them. I've seen quick little guys that can make a pincushion out of you before you knew you were in a fight.

    Ha, ha, backflip single leg defence totally works. I think I have even seen youtube videos of some D1 guys in the US using it.
     
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  16. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The sparring at Dog Brothers gatherings is full contact with minimal protective gear (typically fencing mask, hockey gloves, and cup, although I believe knee and elbow protection is allowable) and heavy rattan sticks (or synthetic trainers for blades). The only real rule is that everybody stays friends and tries to avoid permanent brain injuries. (So - respect the tap for submissions, stop if someone gets injured, don't tee off with your stick on someone whose mask comes off, etc.)

    People do get injured - you see concussions, broken bones, cuts requiring stitches, etc - but not as often as you might expect. I think this is mainly because practitioners don't generally join in that type of sparring until they've reached a certain skill level and know how to protect themselves. Also because the sparring is done in the spirit of growth rather than malice.
     
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  17. Yokozuna514

    Yokozuna514 Black Belt

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    Ok, so there is some understanding and mutual respect between opponents. Looks pretty cool and probably one of the closest opportunities to test your training with weapons without getting maimed in the process. Thanks for sharing.
     
  18. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Speaking as a BJJ practitioner, there is certainly potential validity in most of the Aikido techniques I've seen. I've even been caught by a couple of them on occasion. There's also value in the underlying principles.

    That said, as an outsider looking in on Aikido practice there are some significant issues I see.

    First, most of the techniques in the Aikido syllabus are highly situational. The right circumstances to apply them don't come up that often, especially against skilled fighters. From my outsider's perspective, it appears that a large percentage of Aikido practitioners don't understand those situational limitations, don't train with those situations in mind (except in a highly artificial way which doesn't translate well to actual application), and don't have the skill set to cover the majority of more likely combative situations (unless they have crossed trained in other arts).

    Second, it seems that most Aikido schools I've seen have fallen into what I'll call the "Aiki trap."

    For my purposes I'll define Aiki as that moment in a fight where everything comes together perfectly, you blend with your opponent's energy and timing so that your technique feels effortless - it really seems like your opponent just threw themself for you. Unfortunately in real life, you don't get to the point of being able to do this without a whole lot of non-Aiki rough and tumble experience. (You're also more likely to find those moments against opponents who are much less skilled.) Even a really skilled fighter who frequently manages to achieve Aiki moments in a fight can't get them all the time, or even most of the time.

    The "Aiki trap" comes when practitioners of an art (and it doesn't have to be Aikido, I've encountered this in other arts), want to bypass the whole process of going through years of rough and tumble fighting or sparring in order to just occasionally be able to get those magical feeling Aiki moments. Instead, they just practice with having their training partners feed them highly stylized, overcommitted, unrealistic attacks that are comparatively easy to blend with and never have those training partners offer any realistic effort to defeat their techniques. It's a shortcut that gives the illusion of being able to reliably demonstrate Aiki, but tends to fall apart under real world pressure.
     
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  19. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think this is key. If they made it into a professional sport where there was a paycheck on the line for winning, I think there would be a lot more serious injuries.
     
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  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not only money. The reputation can cause that to happen too.

    In one Chinese wrestling tournament, the heavy weight champ had to fight the middle weight champ to win the grand champ. The middle weight champ defeated the heavy weight champ and hurt the heavy weight champ's knee badly in that match.123
     

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