Aikido.. The reality?

[jobo]

Then don't call it art.

you just called it ''art'' have you been drinking ?
if don't call art,,, art it has next to no value at all

 

[Shatteredzen]

Don't even get me started there.

Ahh, I see you only intend to play the part of the contrarian.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does practical Aikido look the same in a real fight as it does in the dojo?

I know this is difficult for many people to understand. Both practitioners and non practitioners often have an inaccurate idea of what it looks like in application.
This confusion is because TMA practice forms and applications separately. I train both kung fu forms and application forms. My applications forms look the same as the traditional form but rougher. One looks like I'm trying to achieve perfection and focus, while the other looks like I'm fighting. Because of how I train, I won't be winning and forms competitions anytime soon, unless the judges like that kind of stuff.

I'm going to go out on a limb. Here about @drop bear . From his earlier posts I don't think he's asking a lot. This entire tread started off as 2 or 3 simple techniques and still to this point we don't have an agreement on what's actually going on. We have different paths to take a look at, and for me that's fine. But for drop bear, I'm going to guess that "paths to choose from" is not a good answer.

So this one we covered before. The use of the forearm to deal with incoming punches.

• He deals with the punch before the 50% mark
• He uses his forearm to slow the punch
  
• He doesn't try to use his hand to deal with the punch. The problem with this is that if you miss the grab then you are screwed. So you want to use something that will increase your chances that you can deal with the punch even if you are off target.

Interesting fact. His forearms are stronger than the person in the demo. lol.
Another interesting fact. He either hasn't given it much thought or he's at the beginning of what to do with the punch which is good and is the first step.
Another interesting fact. He says Jab but his Partner throws a reverse.
Another interesting fact. He's Demo Partner Curves his punch off target. In Jow Ga this is a NO NO. It's better to throw the punch right down the middle and on target. This way it's easy to identify if you are using the correct technique for the incoming punch. The demo partner shouldn't have to move the punch .

Jow Ga Approach. Don't use that technique off the reverse punch. The last thing you want is for that reverse punch to go straight through that gap in guard.

Technique is sound, I just think it's used against the wrong punch / arm here. I think this is why he's having a difficult time trying to figure out what to do next. He's stuff isn't adding up because he's on the wrong side of the punch.

The hook block is sound but again, he has trouble about what to do next. If you teach "What to do next" then it usually comes easier. Ask me that question and I'll have an answer without thinking. He mentions, the most important thing, which is . "Whatever you do, you have to do it at the same time."

Another Interesting fact. He starts with a two hand block to deal with the hook. You'll often see this with a lot of self defense videos, I don't like it. Then he corrects himself and uses one arm to deal with the block and the other arm to land the blow at the same time. This is the correct way.

In the short sparring session he throws a reverse punch as the first punch. But he knows what punch is coming and that's a problem. The demo guy shouldn't the reverse if that's what he's looking for. They can agree to only linear punches but allow the demo guy to determine how to set that linear punch.

Do I think the techniques that he did are viable? Yes. just not off the rear hand. Using it on the lead jab is better safer and that's my Kung Fu talking. Again. I don't doubt the technique. I just think it was done against the wrong punch.

 

[drop bear]

you just called it ''art'' have you been drinking ?
if don't call art,,, art it has next to no value at all

Yeah but I am not forced to view a martial art subjectively just because it has the word art attached to it.

I can look at it objectively as well.

 

[drop bear]

Ahh, I see you only intend to play the part of the contrarian.

A lot of police restraints courses are terrible. Mostly because you get told to wrist lock people who are trying to punch you.

 

[drop bear]

In the short sparring session he throws a reverse punch as the first punch. But he knows what punch is coming and that's a problem. The demo guy shouldn't the reverse if that's what he's looking for. They can agree to only linear punches but allow the demo guy to determine how to set that linear punch.

Do I think the techniques that he did are viable? Yes. just not off the rear hand. Using it on the lead jab is better safer and that's my Kung Fu talking. Again. I don't doubt the technique. I just think it was done against the wrong punch.

The other guy stops fighting. That isn't a resisted drill.

It is just made to look like one.

 

[drop bear]

I would no more expect to see a guy throwing karate chops on the street than I would someone starting a fight by kneeling down in front of them and getting on their knees like in BJJ.

But I can show you BJJ in a real fight.

 

[jobo]

Yeah but I am not forced to view a martial art subjectively just because it has the word art attached to it.

I can look at it objectively as well.

well you are, you clearly view them subjectively, you've just use your own subjectivity to arive at your view, but failed to realise that what you have done

 

[JowGaWolf]

The other guy stops fighting. That isn't a resisted drill.

It is just made to look like one.

I don't think it was meant as a resisting drill showing resistance. I think it was just a summary explaining the entry concept.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I don't think it was meant as a resisting drill showing resistance. I think it was just a summary explaining the entry concept.

He isnt going to form a cohesive argument or address the entirety of the points you make. As I said before, he is playing the contrarian. He has been given plenty of background, context and honest answers by you, myself and others. He is arguing in bad faith by simply finding singular points to argue as abstract points because he doesnt have a counter argument. Its trolling, plain and simple. Simple repetition on the same theme "I dont believe", when no one is asking for blind faith, he is being given answers to his questions he is simply ignoring them in favor of attacking the straw man he constructed at the beginning.

 

[Martial D]

He isnt going to form a cohesive argument or address the entirety of the points you make. As I said before, he is playing the contrarian. He has been given plenty of background, context and honest answers by you, myself and others. He is arguing in bad faith by simply finding singular points to argue as abstract points because he doesnt have a counter argument. Its trolling, plain and simple. Simple repetition on the same theme "I dont believe", when no one is asking for blind faith, he is being given answers to his questions he is simply ignoring them in favor of attacking the straw man he constructed at the beginning.

That's not at all how I have read this exchange. He is simply asking for evidence that has yet to be presented.

 

[Shatteredzen]

That's not at all how I have read this exchange. He is simply asking for evidence that has yet to be presented.

Really? It reads as "show me video of Aikido street fights or I don't believe you"

Here's police in the Congo using Kote Gaeshi against a man with a machete

Here's what looks like a Korean riot cop doing the "impossible" against a man with a knife

Here's a shoulder throw being used against a man with a knife and a hostage

Here's some dude doing a kote gaeshi into what looks like an arm bar

Here's some guy in Brixton using a maybe failed irimi takedown transitioned into what looks like ippon seoi nage against a drunk

Here's a cop doing a larynx grab against a drunk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAXNmgUz9RU

Here's a cop doing an osoto gari against a drunk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiM2EAsbcjw

How many of these do you want?

He's also been given a novel worth of good information that he's failed to address or converse about because he has been sticking to the same circular argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you cant just look objectively at the better car?

It has to be the car that makes you look cool or something.

What would constitute “better” will vary by person. It’s not entirely objective, at all.

 

[Martial D]

Really? It reads as "show me video of Aikido street fights or I don't believe you"

Here's police in the Congo using Kote Gaeshi against a man with a machete

Here's what looks like a Korean riot cop doing the "impossible" against a man with a knife

Here's a shoulder throw being used against a man with a knife and a hostage

Here's some dude doing a kote gaeshi into what looks like an arm bar

Here's some guy in Brixton using a maybe failed irimi takedown transitioned into what looks like ippon seoi nage against a drunk

Here's a cop doing a larynx grab against a drunk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAXNmgUz9RU

Here's a cop doing an osoto gari against a drunk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiM2EAsbcjw

How many of these do you want?

He's also been given a novel worth of good information that he's failed to address or converse about because he has been sticking to the same circular argument.

To be fair, showing a hip toss and a shoulder throw against people that are focused elsewhere and saying 'see, aikido works' is a little bit thin, but ok.
I could point to those same videos and say..see judo/wrestling/BJJ works but nobody is arguing against that.

So to ask a more pertinent question, why is it in your opinion aikido does not work in competition?

 

[drop bear]

What would constitute “better” will vary by person. It’s not entirely objective, at all.

Yeah. But it's being argued as entirely subjective.

 

[drop bear]

He's also been given a novel worth of good information that he's failed to address or converse about because he has been sticking to the same circular argument.

Most of it wasn't really accurate. And was complicated and time consuming to go point by point on it.

Like the police locks and holds. Which are not generally viewed as practical for a bunch of reasons. The first machete video is a demo. BJJ don't really jump guard in the manner you say and double legs done right Don expose the back of the neck. (Which is where I assumed you were going with that one)

And then there is a whole bunch of nuance that makes risk and reward decisions different in a real fight than what you might get told dogmatically. And so there can be just pages of misconception that I could iron out. But I didn't really have the time to do it.

The issue is there is no link between the training and the application. As you said street Aikido looks nothing like it is trained.

Where there are successful street martial arts that go pretty much the same as they are trained.

There was a poster here who raised this question "prove 2+2=4"

And this is a really good metaphor for martial arts. Because if 1+1=2 and 1+1+1+1=4 and so on and all the parts can be linked to the conclusion that 2+2=4 that proves the equation.

And this is the same as martial arts.

So we can look at say one technique. The double leg. And it works pretty much the same everywhere. And people who are really good at it are constantly good at it. And can use it in every circumstance that applies to that move. 1+1=2 Against different people in different environments. It doesn't matter. They can hit this move consistently.

And it is this consensus of the parts that makes the whole.

Rather than trying to trace a broken line between a cop choke slaming a guy and an Aikido technique. So therefore your whole method is justified.

When you could be missing a ton of back of house that makes that move work.

Which is the back of house we are generally asking for when we ask for video.

So that you can literally unpack your martial art at any time and use it.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Most of it wasn't really accurate. And was complicated and time consuming to go point by point on it.

Like the police locks and holds. Which are not generally viewed as practical for a bunch of reasons. The first machete video is a demo. BJJ don't really jump guard in the manner you say and double legs done right Don expose the back of the neck. (Which is where I assumed you were going with that one)

And then there is a whole bunch of nuance that makes risk and reward decisions different in a real fight than what you might get told dogmatically. And so there can be just pages of misconception that I could iron out. But I didn't really have the time to do it.

The issue is there is no link between the training and the application. As you said street Aikido looks nothing like it is trained.

Where there are successful street martial arts that go pretty much the same as they are trained.

There was a poster here who raised this question "prove 2+2=4"

And this is a really good metaphor for martial arts. Because if 1+1=2 and 1+1+1+1=4 and so on and all the parts can be linked to the conclusion that 2+2=4 that proves the equation.

And this is the same as martial arts.

So we can look at say one technique. The double leg. And it works pretty much the same everywhere. And people who are really good at it are constantly good at it. And can use it in every circumstance that applies to that move. 1+1=2 Against different people in different environments. It doesn't matter. They can hit this move consistently.

And it is this consensus of the parts that makes the whole.

Rather than trying to trace a broken line between a cop choke slaming a guy and an Aikido technique. So therefore your whole method is justified.

When you could be missing a ton of back of house that makes that move work.

Which is the back of house we are generally asking for when we ask for video.

So that you can literally unpack your martial art at any time and use it.

You link a video of a guy choking a guy out on the street as an example of "BJJ in a fight" and yet 7 videos showing the same amount of substance are a "broken line" towards proving my point? Sure. You have been arguing that Aikido and more recently, police training is all people trying to catch punches to throw wrist locks, yet when given detailed explanation you breeze over it and now dismiss it as "pages of misconception".

Let's take the double leg takedown, the first move you learn in high school wrestling, it works great, until you run into anyone that expects it. Try a double leg takedown in an actual fight against someone who knows what they are doing and you are going to end up with a knee in your face, someone wailing on the back of your head or choked in a guillotine. Does the technique work? Sure, sometimes, against people who don't expect it or who don't know how to counter it. As a constantly repeatable technique? No, because there is for one, no such thing as a move that works equally well against different people, in different environments. It doesn't work two out of two times in MMA much less anywhere else, that's why so many schools train to sprawl.

The two wrist lock techniques you seem to think makeup the entirety of Aikido are taught as counters to a grab. They work perfectly fine for this purpose, to disarm an attacker or to disable a violent drunk, which, contrary to what you may think, is the vast majority of violent assaults a member of the public will face, if ever, in their lifetime. I can count on one finger, the number of street fights I have been in with a well trained, disciplined opponent and that lasted long enough for him to get a baton across the shin and to get put in handcuffs. What I can tell you is that I have been attacked many times by people trying to hit me with things, stab me or someone else or trying your famous double leg takedown and the aikido has ended plenty of those altercations in one or two techniques, with minimal or sometimes even no injury to everyone involved. I've also never arrived on scene to a martial arts fight in progress between two experienced fighters, nor have I heard about that happening to anyone else I have ever worked with. Surprise! Martial arts masters tend to not walk around getting into street fights.

Fights in the real world don't work like an MMA ring, the combatants are rarely sober or athletic and usually the person doing the assault on a regular person is an idiot with little to no training. Criminals are generally lazy people who are fairly cowardly and many times are on drugs. The other place where people like to fight is the bar, where technique beyond wild haymakers ever gets used. For these altercations, Aikido and its underlying principles, tend to work fine. Now if we are talking about a professional, mixed martial arts fight in a ring, Aikido is not going to work well, its hard to do hand manipulations against a sweaty, greased up opponent with MMA gloves on. Finger and wrist locks are banned, slams against a fighter on the ground looking to execute a technique are banned and any single martial art in this setting is going to be at a severe disadvantage without another discipline to round it out. IE BJJ without striking is next to worthless, same with Aikido, you would have to at least pair it with something like boxing or some other combative striking discipline (hence MMA) to make any of it practical. If you get on the ground in a street fight you are getting kicked in the face by the friend of whoever you are fighting, that's a fact more often than not.

I'll concede that a majority of what we see and how we see it trained in the Aikido world is not good and not realistic, but that's different than writing off the whole system. It's also not a simple case of imaginary punch catching and for the record, I'm advocating for people to learn it alongside other stuff like judo, BJJ, etc, thats how I learned it and it has informed and helped me in those other pursuits. Now you can take what I've said or not, you can continue to insist that no one has met your personal litmus test but for the purposes of honestly explaining the merits/flaws of Aikido as a system, I think you've been given enough time, energy and explanation to change your mind or re-evaluate your opinion of it being imaginary punch catching if your mind is actually open enough to have a valid discussion. As I said before, if your just here to troll then be honest about it, because short snippy one liners are not a counter argument and neither is throwing out false prepositions like you have been.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Not going to read all 26 pages, but I don't judge a martial art based on how it holds up against other martial arts.

For me, here's how the test goes:
- martial artist who practices a particular martial art and has never been in a real fight before.

Versus

- person who is untrained, but experienced in real fights and can hold his own against other untrained people.

Give them both some MMA gloves, and put them in the ring together.

The reason why I go by that standard is because the person that you're likely going to have to defend yourself from in real life is neither trained in martial arts nor inexperienced in fighting. Also, training in a particular martial art should stand on its own merits alone without experience applying it.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Not going to read all 26 pages, but I don't judge a martial art based on how it holds up against other martial arts.

For me, here's how the test goes:
- martial artist who practices a particular martial art and has never been in a real fight before.

Versus

- person who is untrained, but experienced in real fights and can hold his own against other untrained people.

Give them both some MMA gloves, and put them in the ring together.

The reason why I go by that standard its because the person that you're likely going to have to defend yourself from in real life is neither trained in martial arts nor inexperienced in fighting. Training in a particular martial art should stand on its merits alone without experience applying it.

Honestly, I'm sorry to say it comes down to how big and mean you are most of the time. Technique helps close the gap but nothing closes the gap on an extra hundred pounds and six inches of reach depending on how much person you were to begin with. You can close most of the gap with technique and ferocity but you need to be able to take a punch or it doesn't matter. Most martial artists lacking experience fall into the category of "cannot take a punch", they think they can, they did that one time in high school but they cannot get past having their nose broken or just getting hit in the face really hard. This is also why you don't see two big guys duking it out as much or more experienced people starting fights, they know the damage isn't going to be worth the posturing. In my experience people tend to give up very quickly when they start to feel pain, they did the mental math for trash talking or "almost" getting into a fight but didn't really have their ante in for the whole show. The size and weight issue is big though, that's the big deal over weight classes in boxing and MMA. I can guarantee most of the Thai guys I have got in the ring with or sparred in the gym were better at Muay Thai, sometimes leaps and bounds better but I had a huge height and weight advantage that made my experience much more forgiving than it would have been if we had been looking each other in the eye.

 

[jobo]

Yeah. But it's being argued as entirely subjective.

it can be entirely subjective or people wouldnt drive bad cars, there would only be one good car and you would have to all drive that, even of you really didnt want to, coz someone said it was the best

even if you went for value for money, value is automatically a subjective term