Affirmative action, yes or no?

[Bruno@MT]

this is off topic, but everything I quoted is exactly WRONG, in fact, it is 100% wrong. And not just factually wrong, but so wrong it sounds deluded.

Could you please explain? I don't mind if people disagree with me, but if you say that I am totally 100% wrong and deluded, you must obviously know things which I don't. Let's go over these things 1 by 1, mkay?

1) Normally, the president would strongly support the candidate of his party during the campaign, like for example reagan and Bush senior. This was absent from the McCain campaign because Bush was not that popular anymore. If he had been, then Bush and McCain would have shared a lot of public facetime. And given the election results, the republicans got kicked on all fronts. Ergo, there was a lot of dissatisfaction.
The night before the election, there was a debate in which the republican representatives (the republican youth or young republicans or something like that) did a lot of effort to distance themselves from Bush. They would not have done that if his approval rating would have been high.

2) Palin not knowing much about international politics became apparent in media interviews. Also, her 150K$ campaign wardrobe didn't gain her any favor at a time when people couldn't pay their bills because of the housing crisis. Firing a police chief who refused to sack her former brother inlaw?
Mentioning an interview with the UK PM which never happened?
Palin was given a lot of rope, and she put a noose around her own neck.
Her extremism also alienated a lot of moderates. Btw this does not come from me, but from several moderate Americans I know. After the election, they mentioned that Palin was an important factor for them not voting republican

3) The economy couldn't have dumped at a better time for Obama. McCain said that the base of the economy was still strong before fannie and freddy crashed.

4) Obama -is- a gifted speaker. He did not run solely on blackness

5) The Obama side did not throw much dirt at all. They were fortunate enough that the press was having a field day with Palin.

6) 365 to 173 electoral votes is not a landslide?

Which one of these is not true?

 

[mook jong man]

I get that all the time-at dinner just this past Thursday night, even, with the table across from me insisting that I was "that guy." I'm not about to go there, though-maybe you'll figure it out.

Ok I've been racking my brain , but I think I've got it .
With a full beard I reckon you'd look a bit like Barry White.
Was I correct ?

 

[Big Don]

Actually, Don, Obama's a lot like you: you both run on hot air. :lol:

Not me, I run on bitterness and Mountain Dew...

 

[Twin Fist]

ack, Mountain Dew is the Devil's brew

 

[Twin Fist]

not here, I am not giving myself a dinger for off topic posting

Could you please explain? I don't mind if people disagree with me, but if you say that I am totally 100% wrong and deluded, you must obviously know things which I don't. Let's go over these things 1 by 1, mkay?

1) Normally, the president would strongly support the candidate of his party during the campaign, like for example reagan and Bush senior. This was absent from the McCain campaign because Bush was not that popular anymore. If he had been, then Bush and McCain would have shared a lot of public facetime. And given the election results, the republicans got kicked on all fronts. Ergo, there was a lot of dissatisfaction.
The night before the election, there was a debate in which the republican representatives (the republican youth or young republicans or something like that) did a lot of effort to distance themselves from Bush. They would not have done that if his approval rating would have been high.

2) Palin not knowing much about international politics became apparent in media interviews. Also, her 150K$ campaign wardrobe didn't gain her any favor at a time when people couldn't pay their bills because of the housing crisis. Firing a police chief who refused to sack her former brother inlaw?
Mentioning an interview with the UK PM which never happened?
Palin was given a lot of rope, and she put a noose around her own neck.
Her extremism also alienated a lot of moderates. Btw this does not come from me, but from several moderate Americans I know. After the election, they mentioned that Palin was an important factor for them not voting republican

3) The economy couldn't have dumped at a better time for Obama. McCain said that the base of the economy was still strong before fannie and freddy crashed.

4) Obama -is- a gifted speaker. He did not run solely on blackness

5) The Obama side did not throw much dirt at all. They were fortunate enough that the press was having a field day with Palin.

6) 365 to 173 electoral votes is not a landslide?

Which one of these is not true?

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, I can't drop in an 'official' post to direct people to return to topic, so to speak, because I've been involved in this thread as a 'private' person. But it would be a good idea to try to get back on track or wind this up, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[arnisador]

You want to say it isnt fair that you get looked at twice by cops? dont blame the cops, blame the 100's of THOUSANDS of your bretheren

Wait...you seem to be acknowledging that he'll suffer discrimination based on his appearance that has nothing to do with him personally. He can't control his, uh, "brethren" either...this is a problem he faces that you don't. Can we do anything about it?

I know why those kids refused to listen to me. "you need to work harder" isnt as easy to tell themselves as "whitey is holding me down"

You may be stuck in the 60s here...I don't think that's the claim. But the claim that blacks are perceived as poor job candidates--a claim you seem to agree with--isn't matched by a perception that whites are poor job candidates. A given African-American can't change that...and is held to this perception unfairly. Can we do anything about it?

and I dont need to change. White folks HAVE changed[...]we are not the problem

Everything you say endorses the view of the races having different characteristics overall. If that view is false and unfairly hurting people...can we do anything about it? If that view is true and people are suffering...can we do anything about it?

 

[yorkshirelad]

2) Palin not knowing much about international politics became apparent in media interviews. Also, her 150K$ campaign wardrobe didn't gain her any favor at a time when people couldn't pay their bills because of the housing crisis. Firing a police chief who refused to sack her former brother inlaw?
Mentioning an interview with the UK PM which never happened?
Palin was given a lot of rope, and she put a noose around her own neck.
Her extremism also alienated a lot of moderates. Btw this does not come from me, but from several moderate Americans I know. After the election, they mentioned that Palin was an important factor for them not voting republican
quote]
Let's take a look at the TRUTH. The media went to war with Palin. She told Katie Couric that Russia was a neighbour of Alaska and they communicate over trade and such. the media spun this into the Tina Fey quote "I can see Russia from my house". Then people started responding to said comment as if it was made by Palin herself.

The $150k wardrobe was precured by the Republican National Committee, to LOAN to Palin and said garments were auctioned to charity after use. This got spun by the media into a glutonous spending spree by Palin, while Americans suffered. Noone asked were Biden or Obama got their suits from, Why? Because they are expected to wear fine clothing. We were used to seeing Palin in Jeans and a sweatshirt. She gets new clothing and the 'elits' are so offended.

The police chief was fired because he refused to follow orders when asked to fire the said trooper. The guy had TAZED HIS OWN SON, what did the chief expect, a commendation.

Joe Biden said in an interview during the campaign, that in 1929 during the depression, FDR came on TV and and told the people not to panic. TV in '29? FDR? Did anyone call him on this? Did the network news report this? No, he gets a pass. Then Obama says that his Grandfather was there at the liberation of Auscwitz. Really, that must have been convenient, Barack's Granddad must have been the only American there. Did the media call him on it? It was mentioned in a few places, but if anyone brought it up as more than a slip of the tongue, they were scorned. Palin slammed Biden in their debate, yet the debate was considered a minor distraction by the media. What a joke.

It just goes to show how much of a joke organizations like the National Organization of Women are. They didn't say a word when Palin was viciously attacked by all quarters of the media. They should rename themselves to the National Organization of Liberal Women and quit the BS.

 

[searcher]

Here is my take on A.A. It had its place and time, but it needs to go away.

At one time it worked great, but it either needs to be thrown out or re-worked.


Back on topic.

 

[Twin Fist]

If that view is true and people are suffering...can we do anything about it?

sure. People need to quit living DOWN to the stereotypes

let me be blunt. It isnt fair that all are judged by the bad actions of a few.
Ever. Wether it is all whites judged by the bad actions of the hillbilly's or all blacks being judged because of their ghetto livin, thug life livin buddies.

White culture realized this, and changed in the last 40 years. Black culture has changed, FOR THE WORSE.

Only they can stop the cycle. As long as the prisons are filled with black people, whites will consider them all as potential criminals.

start staying in school

stop giving your kids stupid names

stop glorifying ignorance

stop with the angry all the time thing. it's old and tired.

dont ACT like you are ghetto and you wont get TREATED like you are ghetto.

 

[Sukerkin]

It's not my country nor my culture but it sounds like the man has a valid point to me.

Whilst it is often true that people will fail to live up to expectations of them, it is also true that if there is a low-level-of-expectation escape clause then many will take it.

I recognise though that what Elder (for one) has been putting across in his cogent posts above has having an element of truth to it - much more than an element in fact - viz that those that were slaves were cut loose without a clue as to how to live normal, productive, 'free' lives (being something of an archetype of 'institutionalised').

It is also the case that such 'social' traits pass on through the generations and that those that tried to 'play by the rules' seldom got an even break (or at least that it was the message that began to be played with "Roots"). That acted to disincentivise attempts to even try to be in the 'game'.

Further, I have also been convinced by the persuasive argument that there are other exemplars of AA, which focus on tangible, physical disadvantage, that we do not decry so voluably, which makes the focus on racial AA a touch on the 'selective outrage' side.

But just as we may fail to grasp just what that is like for a people in an industrialised, supposed democratic, country to go through the end of a period of slavery, it does seem that the oft referred to fact that many of our own ancestors have been through just as evil a period is brushed aside. I think until either it is accepted that the experience those victims of the international African slave trade is qualitively different than that of all other slave 'peoples' or realised that in fact it was not significantly different then this question is never going to settle and fade.

That means that Affirmative Action or something similar will be a bone of contention for as long as it takes for the pot to boil over.

 

[just2kicku]

Here is my take on A.A. It had its place and time, but it needs to go away.

At one time it worked great, but it either needs to be thrown out or re-worked.


Back on topic.

Kinda like the welfare system, started out as a good idea, but now it sucks.

 

[arnisador]

sure. People need to quit living DOWN to the stereotypes

So...give them nothing but "keep a stiff upper lip" advice?

viz that those that were slaves were cut loose without a clue as to how to live normal, productive, 'free' lives (being something of an archetype of 'institutionalised').

(Compare the end of colonialization in Africa.) But again, it's not just slavery's end in 1865...look at the civil rights laws of the 60s, and what prompted them.

 

[Sukerkin]

The final Occam's razor of all this is that you cannot successfully run a culture that is schismed within and against itself.

The 'oppressive' and 'majority' portion of the society acceeded that Slavery was no longer the function by which a civilised nation could in all good conscience economically support a portion of itself.

What they did not do in the aftermath of that is anything more than excercise wishful thinking that the mess that they had made for themselves would sort itself out.

AA is no more than a slightly more practical extension of that line of thought.

The prevously oppressed have within them elements that will, like water, seek the easiest and quickest path to get where they wish. Continue to dig the channel for that element and all you will get is a faster flow to the bottom.

I sign off from this now as the constant attempts to batter through the wall are giving me a headache.

Good luck with sorting the ill-health of your country out using band-aids rather than major surgery.

 

[searcher]

Kinda like the welfare system, started out as a good idea, but now it sucks.

You got it. It is another program that needs to go away or be re-vamped.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I thought I posted a link further back... I dunno...my brain is swiss cheese by this time of the week. LOL



Just because a gas can is sitting next to the fire and you can't find a bucket of water is no execuse to throw the gas on the fire.

Do something? Absolutely! Do something to make the matter worse while at the same time compromising the very ethic you claim to endorse? Absolutely not!



Really? I think that's more opinion than fact. It's like saying that it's discriminatory that over 60% of the people in jail in Atlanta are black. Well, over 60% of the population of Atlanta is black. I guess that's one area where AA doesn't apply, eh?

At any rate, we all know that life's not fair. :deadhorse lol

Life's what you make of it. Everyone, regardless of race has their individual and unique problems to overcome. Life's not fair...be glad you no longer have to worry about saber toothed tigers pouncing on you and eating you or dying from infection caused by a small cut.

I simply don't buy into showing favortism to any particular group based on skin color whether it's white, brown, black, yellow, red, purple, green, orange, pink, teal, etc, etc, etc. I don't expect it to be given to me and I certainly will not give it to another. IMHO I think it's demeaning as stated by Elder earlier.

It's illogical and hypocritical to say you are against racial discrimination but endorse Affirmative Action. It baffles me how that simple fact seems to elude some. :idunno:

What can we do? How about starting with living by the motto that a little respect goes a long way? Preach it, live it, spread it. Regardless, nothing's going to change over night. However, the further you go in the wrong direction the longer it takes to get back...if'n ya know what I mean.

Where did I say I was against discrimination? I am for AA with all its discriminations. Thank you. I think the mentality that 'the richest black man should not be richer than the poorist white man' is still alive and well. If setting up a middle class in the black community is the wrong direction, then I'm not sure I like the destination.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

sure. People need to quit living DOWN to the stereotypes

let me be blunt. It isnt fair that all are judged by the bad actions of a few.
Ever. Wether it is all whites judged by the bad actions of the hillbilly's or all blacks being judged because of their ghetto livin, thug life livin buddies.

White culture realized this, and changed in the last 40 years. Black culture has changed, FOR THE WORSE.

Only they can stop the cycle. As long as the prisons are filled with black people, whites will consider them all as potential criminals.

start staying in school

stop giving your kids stupid names

stop glorifying ignorance

stop with the angry all the time thing. it's old and tired.

dont ACT like you are ghetto and you wont get TREATED like you are ghetto.

Could you provide a list of stupid names you don't like? Should they sound more European? Why?
Sean

 

[Twin Fist]

here is a good example.

there is a pair of twins in this town. their names are pronounced :

Lee Mon Gelo
Oran Gelo

They are spelled:

Lemonjello
Orangejello

Thats friggin stupid.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'll grant you the dessert topping names; however, maybe they were inspired by Bill Cosby, making them perfectly acceptable.
Sean

 

[elder999]

here is a good example.

there is a pair of twins in this town. their names are pronounced :

Lee Mon Gelo
Oran Gelo

They are spelled:

Lemonjello
Orangejello

Thats friggin stupid.

Laws yes, massa John. Ebbybody knows de silly names is just fo' de rich white chilluns, lahk Gwyneth Paltrow's daughter, Apple, an' dem nice Zappa chillun, Moon Unit 'n Dweezil-nots to mention Achmed.:lol:




Honestly, I always thought "Isaac" was a pretty funny name! :lol: First time I heard it, I laughed! :lol: :lol: :lol: