Adding grappling

[guy b.]

Assume for a moment that your wing chun does not contain significant (or effective) grappling. Assume that you will have no problem resisting the urge to grapply and that your VT will remain your primary tool for fighting.

Which style of standing grappling do you think is easiest/most useful/least disruptive to add to the system?

I think that wresting is a very poor choice because it conflicts directly with the platform of VT and interferes with the ideas being developed. If you add wresting it is going to be very hard to prevent yourself from wrestling when the opportunity arises, from making chi sau into a kind of standing grappling, and doing other things which degrade your VT. The long range techniques of wrestling (level change and shooting in) are non-integratable with wing chun, unless you create some kind of hybrid where VT concepts are reduced in importance, i.e. what some might call a jumbled mess.

I think that judo and/or shuai jiao are good choices because of the non-square hip placement which differentiates them strongly from VT and makes them more likey to remain as backup systems in the event of VT failure. They are also much more practical choices than wrestling if the aim is remain standing, and they contain significant and very good close range sweeping and tripping foot techniques which are not trained very well by many VT people, and which build balance and confidence in leg usage.

Of course for ground BJJ is the choice, nothing compares. On the ground is not the time to think of VT.

Thoughts?

 

[Phobius]

Currently grappling is only those bits and pieces that exist in GJJ. Reason being the time investment.

One thing to note however and that is by shaping your body and muscles for ground fighting you actually prepare yourself for grappling as well. Otherwise for grappling I actually agree with you on your comment about shuai jiao and a backup if your WC fails you.

But once more, time is the key ingredient. I have a select amount so for now I wont look into a grappling specific art, as long as some of the elements are present in GJJ.

 

[yak sao]

I agree that Shuai Jiao would be a good addition/backup to WC. In fact, I would say that it is there to some degree already, just that most of us have become blinded to it as the HK WC is more striking oriented.
Like Phobius stated, time, or lack of it, is my biggest enemy, so I have to focus on one primary thing. I have been fortunate enough though to do some training in recent weeks with Tony Dismukes from here on the forum and it's been a big help.
Tony has been helping me with the concept of using just enough grappling to regain my feet...BTW Tony, my jaw is still hurting from the guillotine variation from last weekend!

 

[wckf92]

I agree that Shuai Jiao would be a good addition/backup to WC. In fact, I would say that it is there to some degree already, just that most of us have become blinded to it as the HK WC is more striking oriented.

I agree with you on this.

Like Phobius stated, time, or lack of it, is my biggest enemy, so I have to focus on one primary thing. I have been fortunate enough though to do some training in recent weeks with Tony Dismukes from here on the forum and it's been a big help.

This is my view also. WC is a very broad topic of study. I'd rather master one than attempt to master many. Also, I think its awesome you and Tony linked up. Good to hear that forum members are working together. Well done.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Assume for a moment that your wing chun does not contain significant (or effective) grappling. Assume that you will have no problem resisting the urge to grapply and that your VT will remain your primary tool for fighting.

Which style of standing grappling do you think is easiest/most useful/least disruptive to add to the system?

I think that wresting is a very poor choice because it conflicts directly with the platform of VT and interferes with the ideas being developed. If you add wresting it is going to be very hard to prevent yourself from wrestling when the opportunity arises, from making chi sau into a kind of standing grappling, and doing other things which degrade your VT. The long range techniques of wrestling (level change and shooting in) are non-integratable with wing chun, unless you create some kind of hybrid where VT concepts are reduced in importance, i.e. what some might call a jumbled mess.

I think that judo and/or shuai jiao are good choices because of the non-square hip placement which differentiates them strongly from VT and makes them more likey to remain as backup systems in the event of VT failure. They are also much more practical choices than wrestling if the aim is remain standing, and they contain significant and very good close range sweeping and tripping foot techniques which are not trained very well by many VT people, and which build balance and confidence in leg usage.

Of course for ground BJJ is the choice, nothing compares. On the ground is not the time to think of VT.

Thoughts?

I agree with you.
Shuai jiao would be the recommended grappling system for Kung Fu. In Kung Fu your overall goal should be to fight standing up without getting on the ground with your opponent. Shuai Jiao follows this mind set and has techniques designed to counter someone who is trying to put you on the ground. The best thing about Shuai Jiao is that it's a natural fit to kung fu which means you'll be able to blend the techniques into your punching.

Judo would be my second recommendation, as it's more stand up than BJJ. BJJ would be my last recommendations because their strength is to be on the ground. I'm from the old school where being on the ground is a really bad thing. If you have watched the 5 vs 5 MMA fights then you'll see clearly the down falls of being on the ground. If you are fighting 1 vs 1, then you should be fine, but from a self-defense perspective I never assume that there is only 1 attacker. I'm not saying that BJJ is trash, I'm just saying that it doesn't blend well with the concepts and thinking of Kung Fu. If VT is your main skill set then you need try to keep the fight where you have the strongest skill set.

 

[geezer]

@Guy: Excellent topic for a thread. Don't have time to contribute just now, but I've enjoyed all the input so far.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Personally, I think BJJ and Judo can complement WC/WT/VT well, though my own preference would be Judo. Reason being is that it focuses on grappling while still standing, and if trained under the right teacher (from my limited knowledge) it still incorporates "newaza" or ground grappling, even if its not as highly focused and specialized on the ground like BJJ is.

As a WT only person, I would be leery of going to the ground at all with a BJJ person, but I would be leery against a good judoka even while still on my feet since they can set up sweeps and throws with blinding speed and precision.

 

[KPM]

I've trained a little Silat and have toyed with incorporating some of the sweeps and manipulations. It works fairly well. Anyone ever watch Maul Mornie's vids? His version of Silat has relatively upright stances and resembles Wing Chun more than most Silat systems I have seen. I've never done Shuai Jiao, but I agree that it looks like it would be an excellent choice.

 

[wtxs]

Guy B. - of all those "non-attached" type of fighting you so embraced , why would you even contemplate or have anyone else to add some form of grappling to their WC? Would it not be what you been having soooo much beef about ... such as "attached fighting"?

Maybe we are wrong about you, maybe you are not so one dimensional after all.

 

[guy b.]

Guy B. - of all those "non-attached" type of fighting you so embraced , why would you even contemplate or have anyone else to add some form of grappling to their WC? Would it not be what you been having soooo much beef about ... such as "attached fighting"?

As a teenager and into my early 20s I did judo; that was what I started with. I was a reasonable standard regional level player and used to compete quite a lot. From judo I got into bjj and I have trained in bjj longer than I have VT. Bjj is easier to continue than judo and not as hard on the body. I love grappling.

I think to learn grappling it is best to do it properly, not via VT. I think that the strength of VT is striking, not grappling. I don't think VT has any real answers on the ground or in standup grappling. I think that learning some grappling is essential, ground most importantly but standup also useful.

 

[drop bear]

Assume for a moment that your wing chun does not contain significant (or effective) grappling. Assume that you will have no problem resisting the urge to grapply and that your VT will remain your primary tool for fighting.

Which style of standing grappling do you think is easiest/most useful/least disruptive to add to the system?

I think that wresting is a very poor choice because it conflicts directly with the platform of VT and interferes with the ideas being developed. If you add wresting it is going to be very hard to prevent yourself from wrestling when the opportunity arises, from making chi sau into a kind of standing grappling, and doing other things which degrade your VT. The long range techniques of wrestling (level change and shooting in) are non-integratable with wing chun, unless you create some kind of hybrid where VT concepts are reduced in importance, i.e. what some might call a jumbled mess.

I think that judo and/or shuai jiao are good choices because of the non-square hip placement which differentiates them strongly from VT and makes them more likey to remain as backup systems in the event of VT failure. They are also much more practical choices than wrestling if the aim is remain standing, and they contain significant and very good close range sweeping and tripping foot techniques which are not trained very well by many VT people, and which build balance and confidence in leg usage.

Of course for ground BJJ is the choice, nothing compares. On the ground is not the time to think of VT.

Thoughts?

All grappling interferes with striking. They have two different sets of mechanics.

Folk wrestling is really good because you get points for standing back up. So as soon as you hit the ground you are fighting back to your feet.

 

[guy b.]

I agree with you.
Shuai jiao would be the recommended grappling system for Kung Fu. In Kung Fu your overall goal should be to fight standing up without getting on the ground with your opponent. Shuai Jiao follows this mind set and has techniques designed to counter someone who is trying to put you on the ground. The best thing about Shuai Jiao is that it's a natural fit to kung fu which means you'll be able to blend the techniques into your punching.

Judo would be my second recommendation, as it's more stand up than BJJ. BJJ would be my last recommendations because their strength is to be on the ground. I'm from the old school where being on the ground is a really bad thing. If you have watched the 5 vs 5 MMA fights then you'll see clearly the down falls of being on the ground. If you are fighting 1 vs 1, then you should be fine, but from a self-defense perspective I never assume that there is only 1 attacker. I'm not saying that BJJ is trash, I'm just saying that it doesn't blend well with the concepts and thinking of Kung Fu. If VT is your main skill set then you need try to keep the fight where you have the strongest skill set.

Judo and Shuai Jiao are very similar standing. SJ has the 'fast wrestling' tradition but not sure if this is taught in many places in the west. I would go with whichever has the better place to learn in your area

 

[guy b.]

All grappling interferes with striking. They have two different sets of mechanics.

The freestyle stance, arms, posture are too similar to VT I think, and very confusing in the VT training drills. Something like judo which emphasises hips in, turning and leg throws more than square stance, arm and hand fighting, and lean as freestyle, is much more obviously different and less disruptive to your VT. Less likely to come out when you don't want.

 

[drop bear]

The freestyle stance, arms, posture are too similar to VT I think, and very confusing in the VT training drills. Something like judo which emphasises hips in, turning and leg throws more than square stance, arm and hand fighting, and lean as freestyle, is much more obviously different and less disruptive to your VT. Less likely to come out when you don't want.

On the other side. You will learn to perform and defend a double leg.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Which style of standing grappling do you think is easiest/most useful/least disruptive to add to the system?

Thoughts?

In another forum, I suggested people to add grappling into their Taiji. Someone called me "anti-Taiji". I assume it won't be long before someone will call you "anti-WC".

 

[guy b.]

On the other side. You will learn to perform and defend a double leg.

True, you are unlikely to learn even rudamentary double or single legs with current judo rules

 

[Hanzou]

Frankly GJJ/BJJ is your best bet. Most Modern Bjj clubs incorporate wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Catch and other grappling arts alongside old school Bjj. Further, GJJ schools will veer towards a self defense focus alongside a sport/MMA focus, so you can pick and choose what variety of grappling you want.

GJJ/BJJ academies are also popping up everywhere, so availability is also a benefit.

 

[geezer]

Frankly GJJ/BJJ is your best bet. Most Modern Bjj clubs incorporate wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Catch and other grappling arts alongside old school Bjj. Further, GJJ schools will veer towards a self defense focus alongside a sport/MMA focus, so you can pick and choose what variety of grappling you want.

GJJ/BJJ academies are also popping up everywhere, so availability is also a benefit.

These are good points.

What little grappling I can apply instinctively is based on the wrestling I did 45-50 years ago as a kid. ....Very simple reactions like a sprawl and cross-face to counter a shoot. Unsophisticated but reliable. And I have no practical ground game except escapes to get back to my standup art, WC. If I were younger and had time to study another art it would definitely be BJJ (and I'm still working on that) ...in fact I have been bold enough to break with my lineage and openly recommend cross training in BJJ at the Relson Gracie school in our part of town rather than depending on the the (IMO) highly dubious WC/WT "Auntie Grappling" previously discussed on this forum.

Auntie Grappling ...not really ready for the 21st century:
https://whowerethey.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dobb050.jpg

 

[drop bear]

These are good points.

What little grappling I can apply instinctively is based on the wrestling I did 45-50 years ago as a kid. ....Very simple reactions like a sprawl and cross-face to counter a shoot. Unsophisticated but reliable. And I have no practical ground game except escapes to get back to my standup art, WC. If I were younger and had time to study another art it would definitely be BJJ (and I'm still working on that) ...in fact I have been bold enough to break with my lineage and openly recommend cross training in BJJ at the Relson Gracie school in our part of town rather than depending on the the (IMO) highly dubious WC/WT "Auntie Grappling" previously discussed on this forum.

Auntie Grappling ...not really ready for the 21st century:
https://whowerethey.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dobb050.jpg

 

[guy b.]

What little grappling I can apply instinctively is based on the wrestling I did 45-50 years ago as a kid. ....Very simple reactions like a sprawl and cross-face to counter a shoot. Unsophisticated but reliable. And I have no practical ground game except escapes to get back to my standup art, WC.

I think this is a sensible enough approach. Getting a ground game is a long slow process over the age of about 40 for most people. Since you already have ability standing why not focus your efforts on remaining there or getting back there if you are not there? VT itself takes a lot of training to remain usable.