About belts and time to obtain a BB

[Dirty Dog]

Is it? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have never seen a "standard" colour belt system with requirements from the KKW. In my case, my first school required taegeuks 1 & 2 to obtain a yellow belt, whilst the next school required a "basic" pattern (taegeuk1 is taught at the yellow belt level).

You are correct. The KKW actually only defines standard requirements for Dan ranks.
However, given that 1st Dan requires the 8 taegeuk poomsae, then it's pretty easy to divide them up amoung 10 geup ranks (or 5 belts, in the system Manny proposes). And it's still pretty difficult to imagine needing a year to learn the most basic material.

 

[Gorilla]

Everyone has the right to run a school as they see fit. I believe drawn in stone standards don't help anyone. People develop at different rates. Promote based on skill and hard work. Give your students true honest feedback. Some need to take 5 years others less. It should be based on merit.

 

[terryl965]

Ive never understood the theory that if it takes longer to get to black belt the school will be smaller or less successful. Maybe its different over here, but I know many karate and tkd schools with long times in grade who are a raging success. I see no reason why Manny couldnt run a school with his guidelines and have many, many students. Maybe its just a regional thing.

Sir with all do respect if Manny is teaching KKW than the longest anybody should take is three years to Black belt, majority of schools is withen two years anything longer than that they will leave for the next school. I define my school as two parts sport/Tradition. The sport side is a two year program and the focus is mainly competition sparring, the traditional class I have no set timeframe for Black belt get there when you get there but with tradition comes one/two and three step sparring, self defense, poomsae development and refinment, and last but certainly not least by any means the history and future of TKD. I hope that helps you from my perspective of what I was saying.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sir with all do respect if Manny is teaching KKW than the longest anybody should take is three years to Black belt,... >snip<

Why is this, Terry? Is this the KKW standard that they have written down somewhere?

Also, could you check the other post I had that asked you a couple of questions? Thanks.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Markku P]

I define my school as two parts sport/Tradition. The sport side is a two year program and the focus is mainly competition sparring, the traditional class I have no set timeframe for Black belt get there when you get there but with tradition comes one/two and three step sparring, self defense, poomsae development and refinment, and last but certainly not least by any means the history and future of TKD. I hope that helps you from my perspective of what I was saying.

Just curious, How do work with the sport side? Do they still have to show poomsae etc in the belt test?

/Markku P.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Sir with all do respect if Manny is teaching KKW than the longest anybody should take is three years to Black belt, majority of schools is withen two years anything longer than that they will leave for the next school...

I agree that if it is KKW TKD, then there is a standard for BB. If most schools give the BB at 3 years, then that is how good most people are. With that said, I'd much rather see BB be based on ability than time, and from what I see, 90% of schools are time based. I see the poorest BB's at testing being worse than then best green belts, which doesn't make sense to me. And personally, it doesn't make me want to test if it doesn't represent my abilities.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I agree that if it is KKW TKD, then there is a standard for BB.

What standard is that, besides knowing the 8 Taeguk poomse? From your statement below, should I take it to mean the standard is time-based?

If most schools give the BB at 3 years, then that is how good most people are.

Is this the KKW standard you mentioned above? If it is it seems to be based not on what the KKW has said but rather on what instructors decide. As such it would be subect to change based on what those same instructors do. If the majority of people decide to change the time it takes to promote students to BB then the standard would change. And if Many decides to take 5 years to promote people in his hypothetical school that could go towards changing the standard.

Also, if you're going to go with what most people do, don't forget the 1 year black belts that Korea specializes in. Why not use that as the standard? Video was posted here not long ago of testing in Korea at the KKW, if I recall correctly. Shouldn't that be used as KKW standard for prmotion to dan or poom?

With that said, I'd much rather see BB be based on ability than time, and from what I see, 90% of schools are time based. I see the poorest BB's at testing being worse than then best green belts, which doesn't make sense to me. And personally, it doesn't make me want to test if it doesn't represent my abilities.

Speaking personally, most schools I have seen base testing for BB on a combination of time and ability. You have to meet a minimum of training time (not just time in grade) and be able to perform the stuff you already know adequately. That second part is subjective depending on the school/instructor but if you've trained under.

I have seen schools that promote based almost entirely on time in grade. It's usually not pretty.

Pax,

Chris

 

[terryl965]

Why is this, Terry? Is this the KKW standard that they have written down somewhere?

Also, could you check the other post I had that asked you a couple of questions? Thanks.

Pax,

Chris

Sir if you go by the encyclepidia of Tae Kwon Do written in the seventies they have everything laid out poomsae, one step and self defense. Sure it is basic but that is there requirements. Everything else is added on by each school owner.

 

[terryl965]

Just curious, How do work with the sport side? Do they still have to show poomsae etc in the belt test?

/Markku P.

Yes they do poomsae but not any self defense or one step and the poomsae are basically memorizing the movements

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes they do poomsae but not any self defense or one step and the poomsae are basically memorizing the movements

Do they still get a black belt Terry? If Im understanding correctly they just do sparring and poomsae, but no self defence or timber breaking etc. Im not knocking the concept, just trying to get my head around it. I always assumed students did all the curriculum until they reach 1st dan and then they branch out and specialise in sparring/sport. Does the kukkiwon allow someone to get a first dan without any experience in self defence etc

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sir if you go by the encyclepidia of Tae Kwon Do written in the seventies they have everything laid out poomsae, one step and self defense. Sure it is basic but that is there requirements. Everything else is added on by each school owner.

But these are just things that people need to know to be promoted to 1st dan, correct? (And are these thigns tested on in Korea in general or at the KKW in particular? A friend of mine tested not so long ago for 5th dan in Korea and he didn't mention anything about step sparring or self-defense when we discussed his tests, some of which were at the KKW.) It doesn't take into account the level of proficiency, I assume. By saying no one should take longer than X amount of years to reach BB we're moving away from material covered into the area of proficiency of technique. Granted a one year BB isn't going to have the same mastery of technique as a 5 year BB does but I see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to hold their students to the standards of proficiency they choose.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

But these are just things that people need to know to be promoted to 1st dan, correct? (And are these thigns tested on in Korea in general or at the KKW in particular? A friend of mine tested not so long ago for 5th dan in Korea and he didn't mention anything about step sparring or self-defense when we discussed his tests, some of which were at the KKW.) It doesn't take into account the level of proficiency, I assume. By saying no one should take longer than X amount of years to reach BB we're moving away from material covered into the area of proficiency of technique. Granted a one year BB isn't going to have the same mastery of technique as a 5 year BB does but I see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to hold their students to the standards of proficiency they choose.

Pax,

Chris

Its all relative and comes down to what a club "expects" from a black belt. As Ive said before, I know a kukkiwon black belt who is an absolute gun, and his club expected a hell of a lot before he could grade for 1st dan (I think it took him over four years of solid training), but then I know other clubs wher the only requirements are merely showing up for 18 months and they'll throw you a black belt. If there is no 'official' time in grade set by the kkw to get to 1st dan then I commend the clubs that set high standards and dont just use the excuse "oh, but the club up the road gives out black belts in 2 years", if its not a set standard then who cares what the club up the road does. I think it does far more damage to a club's reputation having guys running around in black belts who are ordinary at best than setting high standards and adhering to them. I have never heard of a student leaving a club because it took too long to get a black belt, in fact the most successful clubs in my area (not just tkd, but all martial arts) take ages to get a black belt. They should have all gone broke years ago based on the theory that it takes too long to get promoted. I remember phoning around looking for a club when I started tkd. There was one club that said I could get a black belt in 2 years and I actually crossed them off the list based on that fact alone, so it can also be a deterent. Again, I think it must be a regional thing.

 

[terryl965]

Chris, Ralph I am actually tired and got up to take a sleeping pill. Believe me tomorrow I will answer all your question and trust me a club/school can do as they please the KKW does not care one bit about proper techs ir what you teach. I know when I was at the instructor course years ago they did but from what I have been told they have really slacked off on requirement basically poomsae and kicking ans some sparring. I run my school my way for the sport it is about the sport fr tradition I teach ewhat my instructors tought me plus some add ons.

 

[terryl965]

Do they still get a black belt Terry? If Im understanding correctly they just do sparring and poomsae, but no self defence or timber breaking etc. Im not knocking the concept, just trying to get my head around it. I always assumed students did all the curriculum until they reach 1st dan and then they branch out and specialise in sparring/sport. Does the kukkiwon allow someone to get a first dan without any experience in self defence etc

To answer this question YES they do, we have school here that only teach sport Olympic sparring and nothing else and they get KKW certificates because they are not held to any standerds what so ever, I have seen sport people get it withen six months if they can spar like a black belt. Hell Arlene Limas was a Karate person and was tought the rules of TKD sparring in less than a year if I remember correctly and she won a gold medal for the US back in 92 or 96 if memory serves ,e right

 

[Markku P]

Does the kukkiwon allow someone to get a first dan without any experience in self defence etc

I think Kukkiwon is pretty clear about this. Minimum what you need is Poomsae, Sparring and Breaking. ( and breaking techniques what I have seen in Korea or any other country are pretty easy )

/Markku P.

 

[terryl965]

Chris, Ralph and Markku - I am looking at the Kukkiwon TaeKwonDo textbook page 83 section D: Curriculum of Training

The curriculum of training contains the contents and volume of an instruction subject to be trained within a given period of time, in which the training course is planned and organized so that the trainees may undergo the due course for the purpose of attaining the established objective. In other words, the curriculum is a plan of a series of training experiences provided for helping the growth and development of trainee's physical, emotional and mental realms. This curriculum consist of three phases, from planning to execution and to examination.

1. Logical sequence of formatting the curriculum

The TKD curriculum must be established in a logical sequence, starting from the establishment of basic ideology, establishment of spwcific training objectives, organization and performance of training course to the final examination.

2. Contents of TKD training

a. Theoretical system

a. History of TKD
b .TKD spirit, principles, purpose,values,ideological basis
c. TKD instruction:instruction method, properties,education,training curriculum, practice,test,upkeep of facilities.
d. Scientific approach to TKD: physiology, dynamics,phychology, coaching science.
e. prevention of injury
f. Trainingof players: training principle, warming up and finishing up exorcises, physical strength training, technical training, training program, weight control.

B. practical techniques training

a Foundamentals of TKD ( TKD Poomsae : Kup-grade poomsae and Dan grade poomsae)
b. TKD Kyorugi (competition): patterned kyorugi, match kyorugi, free style kyorugi
c. TKD demonstrion
d. TKD games

There is actually no time to achieve your poom/Dan grade for 1st, they could acheive it within a year and rightfully do in alot of cases. Now on page 85 they list all the requirements for no grades - 8th to 4th kup - 3rd kup to probationary Dan.
On page 86 they list from 1st to 3rd Dan - 4th to 6th Dan -over 7th Dan and if you would like to know them I will post later this week when I have more time. I hope this helps some of you.

 

[Manny]

Dirty Dog, maybe one full year of white to yellow blet sounds too much, but for me tgis could be a good maturity time, in this full year I will teach the basics and the 4 kichos (basic poomsae) before to enter the taeguks (taeguks would be studied before yello blet examination). In this full year I will polish all the tkd stuff in my students, you know that everithing becomes second nature afther thousands of repetitions.

Why rush the people from white to yellow? Maybe one or two partial test beetwen white and yellow belt would be fine.

Manny

 

[Manny]

I think you wouldn't have many students if you follow that system. In my experience time frame between belts should be 2-6 months and if you are active then you can get your black belt in 3-4 years. It doesn't matter if you are child or adult, Kukkiwon has "poom-grades" so course I use those guidelines. I personally think we are too much value for the 1st dan.

Perhaps we should focus more to get students who will be 4-5 Dan black belts in the future.

/Markku

Two to six months to chanbe the colour of the belt for me is to short, that's why the McDojangs are plagued with a lot of pooms belts that really s......ks in their technikes.

Yes if I wanted a McDojo for sure I will purse a lot of belts examinations don't caring about the quality of my teachings and the quality of my students.

Manny

 

[Manny]

My daughter took 18 months to reach BB. She trained during that period 3 to 4 hors per day 6 days per week. She got her Black Belt @ 13. She made the AAU JR National Team within 3 years of training. She is currently on that Team as a Sr Fly weight. She has made that team 3 of the last 4 years.She has been training for 7 years now and is a Second Dan. She is Testing for Third Dan in October. She teaches classes and does private lessons.She also acheivedA BB IN Skotokan Karate during that period.Manny under your system you would of held her back. We have been lucky that we have been able to train with masters who have recognized her ability and helped her progress at an appropriate rate.What if someone like ATC's kids our Terry's kids walked in your Dojang.

Yous daughter can be very good to extraordinary practiciones of TKD and Karate and good for her, she deserves all what she has acomplish, and yes there are very talented kids that can earn black belt in less that two year but they are very very few.

Glad your daughter is so good.

Manny

 

[Manny]

I¡ve been in martial arts for many years, I know very good senseis/sifus/etc, I know several dojos/dojangs here in my city and would like to share with you: There is a very nice "McDojang" near the dojang of my master, This is a beautiful McDojang with lots of wealthy kids, the number of belts on the lader is maybe 9-12, the sambonim has a lot of black belts and lot's on poom belts, and yes he has very good people but the gross of his classes are little kids with horrible techs, some one like me that knows a little of TKD (old school) recognizes thta' a McDojo and tha's a very good business, however I don't like what I see there. In the other hand I have the JDK Central owned by exformer master this is a clasical TKD Dojank, the curricula is nice the master is one of the best old school masters one can have at hand in my city, he maybe has 1/4 of the students the McDojo has, the regular time to acheiev BB status at JDK is 3 to 4 years.

In the dojo I teach, we have very talented kids (no more than a handful), and then alot of good ones and then the rest, however I feel the time beetewn belts is too short, that's why if my two students ask me about the next test I told them to go esasy, if I feel they are not prepared (clases are two times per week) I ask them not to test and prepare better for the next one.

Yes maybe with these policy of 4-5 years to become a black belt I would not have a lot students, but that's not the most importante to me.

QUality is better than cuantity, for me.

Manny