A very different 3rd form
- Thread starter wckf92
- Start date
Well, the sequence matches up as far as I can tell, but everything about how the form was executed was way sloppy and all over the place. And AFAIK TWC guys aren't required to grunt either.
Edit:
For comparison, here's William Cheung doing the form:
Yeah, the Bernickis started out with TWC and have since gone there own way. I'm sure this version has their own changes and "tweaks." So they call their thing "Jee Shim Wing Chun" now.
Gesundheit!
Hey, does anybody have any factual information on where Willieam Cheung got his stuff? I know many Yip Man students believed he came up with it himself. But if not, there should be parallels in some of the old Fo'shan lineages, right?
anerlich
Brown Belt
ng
Haha. Good luck with that. I've been around TWC for 27 years and have been trying to find that out the whole time. A few superficial similarities with HFY but nowhere near enough to say they have the same source.
This is probably 90-95% similar to what I learned back in the 90's. Looks like these guys changed things around a bit. No biggie, my instructor has done the same. I don't do the grunt thing, but there are some parts of one form where a "hup" sound can be used.
The TWC Chum Kiu form can easily be done with the knives. Makes for a cool form! The Biu Gee form doesn't work quite as well with the knives in my opinion, but still doable. TWC is a "larger frame" and "long arm" version of Wing Chun. So the knives fit pretty well with most of the motions.
My thoughts:
-William Cheung probably saw limitations in his WC training and wanted to create a system that better suited him
-Problem is, in China, that's basically taboo. Changing the system from whatever you taught is a grave sin, and if you do change something you're expected to attribute it to someone else and not take credit for it
-William Cheung created the TWC story as a cover, but after seeing the money that it brought in, got a bit carried away with it.
FWIW I've seen a few TWC guys doing very well in competitions (Jerry Devone, etc.) while simultaneously looking actually looking like proper Wing Chun, even with changes. So even though there's a bunch of woo woo and MLM, I think it's safe to say that there's something of substance hidden in there.
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Seems like a fair assessment. It would be interesting to have a few more people with experience in "TWC" contributing on this forum. Phil Redmond used to be a regular over on "that other forum" ...before it pretty much died out due to excessive bickering (imagine that!). It would be nice to get him on board here. Anybody know him?
Eric_H
Black Belt
Huh, weird. The one performed by GM Cheung looks vaguely familiar in sequence (not details or structure) at certain parts to the last two sections of the public version of HFY's Chum Kiu.
Also, regarding Sifu Redmond - from what I see he's mostly active on Facebook these days, there's a busy WC group on there.
Also, regarding Sifu Redmond - from what I see he's mostly active on Facebook these days, there's a busy WC group on there.
anerlich
Brown Belt
Sifu Phillip Redmond on Facebook.
Eric_H, I met up with Alex Oropeza (duende from the KFM forum) when he was in Sydney about 10 years ago. We had a nice long chat over coffee and compared a few forms in the rain at Circular Quay near the Opera House. Suffice to say we both agreed that if TFC and HFY came from the same source it was a L-O-N-G way back.
EDIT: It probably wasn't 10 years ago I met Alex - we were talking about BJJ and I was a brown belt at the time, which I didn't get until late 2010 - so maybe six years ago.
Eric_H, I met up with Alex Oropeza (duende from the KFM forum) when he was in Sydney about 10 years ago. We had a nice long chat over coffee and compared a few forms in the rain at Circular Quay near the Opera House. Suffice to say we both agreed that if TFC and HFY came from the same source it was a L-O-N-G way back.
EDIT: It probably wasn't 10 years ago I met Alex - we were talking about BJJ and I was a brown belt at the time, which I didn't get until late 2010 - so maybe six years ago.
anerlich
Brown Belt
If you go back far enough, we all came from the same source!
Picture of Ng Mui finally found:
OK that's "Lucy", but you get the idea.
I would be willing to believe that if there had been mainland Wing Chun styles around that looked anything like TWC and HFY. This showed up recently on FB and does make my wonder:
But several people (including TWC people) agreed that this is just too close to TWC's Chum Kil form. In this age of video it's just too easy for someone to copy something from DVD and claim it as "original."
Yes, there is value. No, it is not that bad at all! Much better than that "other" forum that essentially self-destructed.
