A Stolen Election in 2004?

[Tgace]

Ohio voters as photographed on election day.

:uhyeah:

 

[ghostdog2]

Striking isn't it, that John Kerry, the guy with the most at stake, has distanced himself from all this nonsense.
Personally, I think the crop circles attracted black helicopters that brought in poltergeist that changed the vote. "They" are everywhere.
Get a grip, please. The list of UFO abductees is longer and more convincing than the "evidence" on this.

 

[Makalakumu]

The list of UFO abductees is longer and more convincing than the "evidence" on this.

This is an absolutely wacky statement. Especially considering...

http://www.stopabductions.com/

Now that is a real tin-hatter!

If you really want to play, you've got to come up with something credible to counter the pile of evidence on this thread. Get to work...

Incidently, this is ironic...

http://www.latimes.com/news/politic...oll=la-headlines-elect2004&ctrack=1&cset=true

In the various lists on right wing fraudulent activity posted on this thread, many of the incidents occured in Washington. Apparently, it didn't work so now they have to resort to the rule of law.

My my how the tables turn...

 

[loki09789]

This is an absolutely wacky statement. Especially considering...

http://www.stopabductions.com/

Now that is a real tin-hatter!

If you really want to play, you've got to come up with something credible to counter the pile of evidence on this thread. Get to work...

Incidently, this is ironic...

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-washgov8jan08,1,1020002.story?coll=la-headlines-elect2004&ctrack=1&cset=true

In the various lists on right wing fraudulent activity posted on this thread, many of the incidents occured in Washington. Apparently, it didn't work so now they have to resort to the rule of law.

My my how the tables turn...

What are you thinking this 'evidence' indicates?

I see only 'evidence' that things need to be more systematically run, consistently run and 'centralized' if you want things to be fairly run and enforced....as it is right now, no two polling sites are run the same and the level of confidentiallity/credibility varies as well.

Here may be a way to gain some form of perspective on this stuff:

Cross reference the complaints about the most recent election to any that were reported during war time elections of the past
(which may or may not reveal a pattern of 'voter stress' and stress reactions during wartime that manifest as hypersensitive voters not necessarily Party conspiracy)

or compare the number of voter fraud complaints during Democratic majority years vs Republican majority years (which may or may not indicate a pattern of post election complaining depending on how much, how substantiated the 'losers' complaints really are - as well as how frequently they may complain) .....

I don't see anything accept evidence of a very confused and inconsistent system right now.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't see anything accept evidence of a very confused and inconsistent system right now.

You have some interesting historical points and it would be enlightening to see where that research leads...

Currently, though, our elections, if they are only a very confused and inconsistent system, are on par with the third world. This alone should not be acceptable to us.

Then, you HAVE to look at the people who have STATED an INTENT to deliver certain results. Many of these people should never say those things because they are in the position of power regarding elections. In this case, there is good evidence that many of these people "delivered" on their promises...

There is evidence of illegal activity, deliberate mismanagement, voter intimidation and violence, and violation of federal law/constitutional rights. This is anathema to everything our country stands for and should not be acceptable regardless of ideology.

 

[Tgace]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1800

 

[ghostdog2]

T'gace: Very good reference. Interesting to note that Hamilton considered Burr more dangerous than Jefferson. He was more correct than he could have known at the time.
Maybe Aaron Burr's ghost disrupted the Ohio count.

 

[Tgace]

"There is nothing new under the sun."

 

[Makalakumu]

"There is nothing new under the sun."

Does that make it right?

 

[modarnis]

>>>22. Cops ticket illegally parked cars at poll, because of long wait.

Boyd Mitchell, testimony, 11/13 hearing, Columbus
"What I saw was voter intimidation in the form of city employees that were sent in to stop illegal parking. Now, in Driving Park Rec Center, there are less than 50 legal spots and there were literally 100s and 100s of voters there, and I estimate that at least 70 percent of the people were illegally parked in the grass around the perimeter."

Michael Hayes, testimony, 11/13 hearing, Columbus
"Imagine the sight, in a Black neighborhood where a lot of young black voters are showing up for the first time, you have full police presence, even though they are sitting in cars.... >>>

How is enforcing existing laws voter intimidation? I had to park a few blocks away, but I was responsible enough to parallel park my car and walk down the block to the polling place. Why does voting have to be convenient? I should want to vote, despite the sacrifice (usually minimal like parking hassle or waiting in a line) 3200 registered in my precinct and only 2 machines. Nobody turned away.

On the other issue of police presence at voting places, since I was a child going with my parents to vote, and in 20 years of my own voting in a variety of cities big/small/and ethnically diverse (New Orleans was a 65% Black registered voter city in the years '95-98 when I lived there) there have been police officers at the polling places to enforce parking rules, prevent any unrest, and here in Connecticut to enforce the 75 foot rule where you can't leaflet or campaign within 75 feet of the polling place.

To construe either of these things as voter intimidation is beyond ridiculous

 

[Tgace]

The truth is "out there".

 

[Lisa]

The truth is "out there".

but....Trust no one

 

[Makalakumu]

How is enforcing existing laws voter intimidation?

Because it is not enforced equally. In neighborhoods with high Republican votership, this did not happen. This was also reported numerous times in civil court cases by people who witnessed this unequal treatment. This is Jim Crowe southern style voter repression...

Why does voting have to be convenient?

Why does it have to be inconvenient? Moreover, why does it have to be inconvenient for certain groups and not others.

I think that voting should be something we treasure in this country and by making it as convenient as possible, we are showing how important it is.

On the other issue of police presence at voting places, since I was a child going with my parents to vote, and in 20 years of my own voting in a variety of cities big/small/and ethnically diverse (New Orleans was a 65% Black registered voter city in the years '95-98 when I lived there) there have been police officers at the polling places to enforce parking rules, prevent any unrest, and here in Connecticut to enforce the 75 foot rule where you can't leaflet or campaign within 75 feet of the polling place.

I've never seen a police officer at a polling place unless one was called. In most cases, I would say its not needed. In some places, the relationship between LEOs and various groups of people is positive and in others negative. Many times, minority groups feel signaled out for whatever reason. Why put people in a fearful environment when they are trying to enact their civic duty?

 

[Makalakumu]

The truth is "out there".

Yup, the "Truth" is "out there".

 

[Tgace]

Because it is not enforced equally. In neighborhoods with high Republican votership, this did not happen. This was also reported numerous times in civil court cases by people who witnessed this unequal treatment. This is Jim Crowe southern style voter repression...

And how pray tell do you know this? How do you know if there were parking problems in those areas or not? How do you know if any parking tickets were issued in "Republican Areas" or not? Or security details? Are you implying that the shift Sergeant told his officers "Well boys we have a note here from the white house saying we have to go oppress the black voters in these districts. Williams and Smith you guys are Republicans, break out your summons books." ??? Come on thats a stretch even for you. Are you assuming that most cops are Bush supporters? Theres quite a few of my co-workers (minus myself of course ) that are not.

I've never seen a police officer at a polling place unless one was called. In most cases, I would say its not needed. In some places, the relationship between LEOs and various groups of people is positive and in others negative. Many times, minority groups feel signaled out for whatever reason. Why put people in a fearful environment when they are trying to enact their civic duty?

How do you know that the police werent called regarding parking problems near the voting area? Streets need to be kept clear for emergency traffic and some areas clear for fire lanes etc. Turning this into evidence of collusion between the PD and some "vast right wing conspiracy" is silly. I had to do parking enforcement in front of an elementary school polling location on election day. This was because people were parking where the busses were supposed to load and unload. That and post 9/11 security issues. Had no breifing from the Secret Service that morning telling me to make sure that I intimidated people into voting Republican....

Youre reaching with this one...

 

[modarnis]

>>>I've never seen a police officer at a polling place unless one was called. In most cases, I would say its not needed. In some places, the relationship between LEOs and various groups of people is positive and in others negative. Many times, minority groups feel signaled out for whatever reason. Why put people in a fearful environment when they are trying to enact their civic duty?
>>>


How are police officer's in cars or standing around creating a fearful environment? If you are at a polling place (or anyplace else for that matter) behaving in a manner appropriate for the place you shouldn't have anything to fear from the police. Try reading Heather McDonald's Are Cops Racist to get an accurate view of what average minorities really think, not the made for TV soundbites.

This nonsense just perpetuates silliness. Every criminal who runs from the police in my jurisdiction who needs to be subdued with a taser or whatever always says they ran because they are afraid of the po-lice. Its never the drugs or gun or other suspicious activity that prompted there running

 

[Makalakumu]

And how pray tell do you know this? How do you know if there were parking problems in those areas or not? How do you know if any parking tickets were issued in "Republican Areas" or not? Or security details? Are you implying that the shift Sergeant told his officers "Well boys we have a note here from the white house saying we have to go oppress the black voters in these districts. Williams and Smith you guys are Republicans, break out your summons books." ??? Come on thats a stretch even for you. Are you assuming that most cops are Bush supporters? Theres quite a few of my co-workers (minus myself of course ) that are not.

"Hey guys, we just gotta call about problems at (insert polling place). Why don't (insert names) go and check this out."

It is as easy as that. You have to get out of fantasy land in order to understand this. These people aren't flying around on broomsticks and cackling with evil glee. Two guys driving around in a car with a cell phone checking on minority polling places for problems and reporting can do the job quite nicely...

How do you know that the police werent called regarding parking problems near the voting area? Streets need to be kept clear for emergency traffic and some areas clear for fire lanes etc. Turning this into evidence of collusion between the PD and some "vast right wing conspiracy" is silly. I had to do parking enforcement in front of an elementary school polling location on election day. This was because people were parking where the busses were supposed to load and unload. That and post 9/11 security issues. Had no breifing from the Secret Service that morning telling me to make sure that I intimidated people into voting Republican....

Again, you are swimming around fantasy island and trying to cook up some absurd situation where "all cops are evil republicans" and that is not what is being said. The PD are just going to do there job, but for some reason, they only were called to certain polling places. This has been reported numerous times.

There were parking problems everywhere because so many people came out to vote, yet only certain polling places had the PD called to correct the situation...

You're reaching with this one...

I guess it certainly would seem like that...especially when one tries to blow this up into an unrealistic charicature of what actually happens.

I've got a couple of questions for you since law enforcement is your profession. Do you have time to respond to every parking problem? Or do you respond to the ones you see or the ones your department recieved calls about? (this is assuming that you actually write parking tickets :idunno: That might not even be close to what you do for your job)

 

[Makalakumu]

How are police officer's in cars or standing around creating a fearful environment? If you are at a polling place (or anyplace else for that matter) behaving in a manner appropriate for the place you shouldn't have anything to fear from the police.

That isn't even close to describing reality. It all depends on the cultural perception of a police officer. In many cases and in many places the local PD have really created bad images for themselves and this negative PR can make it very uncomfortable, even fearful for large groups of people...especially when they know..."da cops ain't hangin round richies backdo..."

Try reading Heather McDonald's Are Cops Racist to get an accurate view of what average minorities really think, not the made for TV soundbites.

I'll have to put the book on my reading list. I'm not saying that all cops are racist, but I know that some people really believe that. Even people who have never done anything wrong their entire lives, may believe this.

I work with this kind of stuff everyday. I don't need TV.

This nonsense just perpetuates silliness. Every criminal who runs from the police in my jurisdiction who needs to be subdued with a taser or whatever always says they ran because they are afraid of the po-lice. Its never the drugs or gun or other suspicious activity that prompted there running

You sound exactly like my kyosa. He is a sergeant at the jail and he deals with the type of crying wolf silliness you describe all of the time. But, he makes an effort to remind himself that what he sees on a regular basis is not the norm.

And I think that you are forgetting that the perps are human beings. They have connections to family and friends and many of these people have never done anything wrong in their lives. Yet, I'm sure they get a constant earfull of how "day bein hassled by da po-lice..."

It's all about PR...and it isn't so "out there" to think that someone may know of places where bad PR exists and seek to use that for their advantage.

 

[Makalakumu]

One thing that people have got to realize is that the fraudulent activities that occured in 2004 were local. They were constructed by people who knew the battlefield intimately and had the power to influence things on a local level.

This isn't some kind of vast network created and managed by the White House. That is absolutely absurd. These people are part of small independent groups engaged in the type of dirty trick grassroots politics that Right Wingers have been employing for ages. This is nothing new and it still is unacceptable.

Here is what makes this year different though. In some states, there is evidence that state officials involved in the election process abused their power and broke the law in order to influence the election. Ohio Secratary of State James Blackwell was cited in the congressional report.

Here is a sample of some of the laws he broke...

1. He made new rules for the handing out of provisional ballots on election day. These new rules were in violation of Ohio election law. The result was that this vastly increased the amount of people who would be handed these ballots. As reported by eyewitness account and by Ohio public record, most of these ballots were handed out in minority/poor districts.
2. He made new rules for the counting of these ballots. These new rules were in violation of Ohio election law. The result was that 4/5's of the ballots were thrown away. Of the 1/5th that were left, John Kerry recieved 37,000 more votes. George Bush recieved 1,500.
3. He ordered the holding back of voting machines to certain districts on election day. This was a violation of Ohio's equal access laws. The result was absurdly long lines in poor/minority voting districts.
4. He ordered the abolishment of curbside voting. This was a violation of Ohio's equal access laws. The result was the disenfranchisement of thousands of elderly and disabled citizens.
5. Read the rest of the congressional report if you want more information...

Mr. Blackwell sealed all state records until after the vote was legally certified. The Democratic party took the case to the Supreme Court and the Republican nominated court upheld the decision on a technicality. This decision is being appealed to federal court. Mr. Blackwell has been issued supeonas to release the records, but continues to stonewall in apparent contempt of court. What will the records show when they finally are released?

John Kerry won Ohio.

 

[loki09789]

You have some interesting historical points and it would be enlightening to see where that research leads...

Currently, though, our elections, if they are only a very confused and inconsistent system, are on par with the third world. This alone should not be acceptable to us.

Then, you HAVE to look at the people who have STATED an INTENT to deliver certain results. Many of these people should never say those things because they are in the position of power regarding elections. In this case, there is good evidence that many of these people "delivered" on their promises...

There is evidence of illegal activity, deliberate mismanagement, voter intimidation and violence, and violation of federal law/constitutional rights. This is anathema to everything our country stands for and should not be acceptable regardless of ideology.

Third world,...why yes! I do remember numerous reports of car bombs and strong arm tactics (guns, killings of family members, ....) happening before the election. I do remember all the cases of businesses turning away customers that they knew were Democrats.....

come on. "Skulldugery" as in conspiracy or just hick/numbscull tactics and inefficiency that needs to be regulated.

I do find it interesting that any mention of more centralized/regulated/consistent standards would take us into a discussion about bleeding the soveriegnity of state/local power though.

There is no pleasing some...

Don't you think that the whole "Right wing" stuff that you are saying
'they' are getting away with could be because, traditionally, Democrats have pushed and pulled for less centralized power and therefore contributed to the creation of a very awkward, uncoordinated system with enough 'cracks' for stuff like this to fall through...and if so, who do you think was doing this stuff already....Democrats....