A question re. pressure points.

[Hand Sword]

As I said, If you can do it for real Great! God Bless You! I'm not condemming anything. I said earlier that i beleive that they exist and anything is possible (regarding the touch K.o.'s). I just said that I prefer to keep it simple and straight forward for real. In my opinion, there's no time to push, press, etc.. on the body. I'm sure at work you and your students don't always get the results your looking for. Pain tolerance, drugs, and alcohol, don't allow for that.

 

[Doc]

Pain tolerance, drugs, and alcohol, don't allow for that.

This subject is 'over your head.' True pressure point applications are not 'pain compliance' techniques sir, therefore pain tolerance, or drug and alcohol intoxication have no impact on effectiveness. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but in an open forum discussing a topic of which you have no knowledge, you may give others false impressions.

 

[Michael Billings]

Pain compliance can be a part of "pressing" pressure points, but so can healing ... and that can be a bit painful also.

There is a difference when striking, angle of incidence, and the natural weapon you strike with. I would generally say that "pain", per se, is seldom part of the pressure point strike itself. The opponents' reactions are way faster than "yielding" to pain allows. They just drop ... it is way cool. I would also paraphrase Doc here in that if you train for failure, that is what you get.


-Michael

 

[D.Cobb]

As I said, If you can do it for real Great! God Bless You! I'm not condemming anything. I said earlier that i beleive that they exist and anything is possible (regarding the touch K.o.'s). I just said that I prefer to keep it simple and straight forward for real. In my opinion, there's no time to push, press, etc.. on the body. I'm sure at work you and your students don't always get the results your looking for. Pain tolerance, drugs, and alcohol, don't allow for that.

Hmmm, a very wise man once told me, "If it relies on pain to work, then it's doomed to fail."

Over the years, I have made this my number 1 mantra.

--Dave

 

[kamishinkan]

I do not know of these groups; Mr. Dillman, etc. The art I train in uses meridians, pressure points used mainly for pain compliance. We all realize that they have their place but for pain compliance they may be limited.
I trained with a Hakko Ryu Jujutsu Shihan once and without telling me knocked me out by "slapping" the back of my thigh. First thing I noted is that it did not seem to be a hard target to hit, of course this was after I woke up (with his help). Secondly, It did not take my participation which I always was told it required. I do not know enough about this application of Pressure Points but after that encounter, I am a believer!

 

[D.Cobb]

I do not know of these groups; Mr. Dillman, etc. The art I train in uses meridians, pressure points used mainly for pain compliance. We all realize that they have their place but for pain compliance they may be limited.
I trained with a Hakko Ryu Jujutsu Shihan once and without telling me knocked me out by "slapping" the back of my thigh. First thing I noted is that it did not seem to be a hard target to hit, of course this was after I woke up (with his help). Secondly, It did not take my participation which I always was told it required. I do not know enough about this application of Pressure Points but after that encounter, I am a believer!

Hehe, don't you love it.... I got told, "I want you to take my head off." Man, I did 8 years of American Kenpo before I met this instructor. If a senior rank tells me to take his head off, I'm gonna do it or go down trying

He stopped me cold, but I wasn't out. I just couldn't move, but didn't know why. In my head I was thinking hit him again, you'll get him this time, but I couldn't move. Then he tapped the side of my jaw.... It didn't hurt, and I'm thinking, "what was that supposed to prove?". Then this cloud comes down over my eyes, and I can still see him through the cloud... then my legs buckled and down I went.

I remember it like yesterday, it was so soft but it affected me like no other hit before it. In the Kenpo school where I had trained, we were full contact. I had never been stopped like this. Going down under pain, when the other guy just does that little bit more than you can handle, is one thing... But to be stopped by a tap like you'd use to knock on a window, something so soft..... Man, that convinced me.

--Dave

 

[kamishinkan]

Yes, It was amazing to "feel". He did not stop me but he side stepped my attack (by the way we train just short of all out and I tried to "take his head off" as well), he open hand slapped the back of my thigh and stepped back. I stopped, looked at him as if to say "what was that?", at this point I felt nothing strange for about 2 seconds and then I felt as if the "energy" (don't have a better word for it) was draining out of me until I collapsed. Next thing I know I am coming to with him perfroming Koho Shiatsu (finger accu-pressure method of Hakko Ryu) on my thigh.
I learned a valuable lesson that day about doubting things because I did not have knowledge of them!

 

[Doc]

There is more knowledge out there than some realize, but its in the hands of a very, very few real teachers. The rest are just rearranging ways to hit somebody as hard as they can while they wear the 'emperors new stripes.' 99.99% have no clue.

 

[kenposikh]

There is more knowledge out there than some realize, but its in the hands of a very, very few real teachers. The rest are just rearranging ways to hit somebody as hard as they can while they wear the 'emperors new stripes.' 99.99% have no clue.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there Doc, I have personally experienced pressuire point knockouts using the simplest of basic strikes and I can assure everyone that there was no pain but there certainly was a loss of time space and awareness cheers Doc

:asian:

 

[Doc]

I wholeheartedly agree with you there Doc, I have personally experienced pressuire point knockouts using the simplest of basic strikes and I can assure everyone that there was no pain but there certainly was a loss of time space and awareness cheers Doc

:asian:

 

[Gentle Fist]

There is more knowledge out there than some realize, but its in the hands of a very, very few real teachers. The rest are just rearranging ways to hit somebody as hard as they can while they wear the 'emperors new stripes.' 99.99% have no clue.

So true!!

 

[Hand Sword]

This subject is 'over your head.' True pressure point applications are not 'pain compliance' techniques sir, therefore pain tolerance, or drug and alcohol intoxication have no impact on effectiveness. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but in an open forum discussing a topic of which you have no knowledge, you may give others false impressions.

Actually not, sir. My education in this has been ongoing for a number of years. As to pain compliance techniques, I never said that is what they were. Pain tolerance was the word used, and that was just an example of the variables. I didn't want to list everything. Either way, your still talking about manipulating an opponent. These activation points, etc... require a lot of specifics. My opinion was don't try this in a real fight. There's no time, and too many variables are involved as it is, that change second to second. Don't complicate things by adding this PP stuff, your life is on the line! As for opinions in the open forum, that goes both ways, sir! You are giving others, who are less experienced a false impression of how easy they are to pull off. Anyone who understands dealing with real encounters knows to strip away complications and keep it simple! If people can keep fighting with no ill effects after having a groin "attacked", ears ripped off, cheeks ripped off, noses broken, and etc.. There's no point in playing "connect the dots".

 

[Doc]

Actually not, sir. My education in this has been ongoing for a number of years. As to pain compliance techniques, I never said that is what they were. Pain tolerance was the word used, and that was just an example of the variables. I didn't want to list everything. Either way, your still talking about manipulating an opponent. These activation points, etc... require a lot of specifics. My opinion was don't try this in a real fight. There's no time, and too many variables are involved as it is, that change second to second. Don't complicate things by adding this PP stuff, your life is on the line! As for opinions in the open forum, that goes both ways, sir! You are giving others, who are less experienced a false impression of how easy they are to pull off. Anyone who understands dealing with real encounters knows to strip away complications and keep it simple! If people can keep fighting with no ill effects after having a groin "attacked", ears ripped off, cheeks ripped off, noses broken, and etc.. There's no point in playing "connect the dots".

Than I suggest you don't attempt to learn it sir because your mind is 'closed' on the subject. Your comments still suggest a very strong lack of the grasp of what and how they function, therefore your education would appeared to be flawed or short.

You also seemed to negate the fact that myself and students have physical confrontations as part and parcel of our employment on a dialy basis, which puts us high on the experience and knowledge list. Pain tolerance/compliance is not a factor nor is it the primary goal of proper applications. It can be a byproduct, but is neither necessary or the goal.

Listen, it's ok to not understand it, or even be interested in their applications, but to dismiss it to someone who has the functional expertise in the real world, and keep reciting the same over again doesn't seem very prudent. Your statements are all wrong and have absolutely no relevancy to how they function or this conversation, therefore your opinion is personal but not backed by a knowledgeable/experience assessment.

I don't believe any of us who have advocated for developing an understanding of this component would ever suggest it's 'easy.' If it were you, and others like you would be doing it. real knowledge is truly hard to come by. However, you are correct about one thing. You should stick with what you think works for you. Now, that is a smart move.

 

[Hand Sword]

"WHO"S THE MASTER?------------------- SHO" NUFF!!!!!!!!"

You know what they say about assumptions sir!
I never said it was a goal, and I know what you do for a living-- You keep using it to boost your arguments. I also deal with it for a living, and felt, seen the results. I have already said that I beleive in them, and their use twice. As for opinions-- they are all personal, by everyone. We all do what works for us. I said that if you use them for real--CONGRATULATIONS! Your personal attacks are what are not releveant to this or any other conversation. With all due respect sir, your a kenpo senior or "ancient" as you've called yourself. Try acting like one! Show some humility and respect, not everyone is as perfect as YOU and YOUR students.

 

[Doc]

"WHO"S THE MASTER?------------------- SHO" NUFF!!!!!!!!"

Now that I know where you're coming from, thanks for the exchange.

 

[Hand Sword]

Your welcome !

Be safe (truly)!

 

[D.Cobb]

There is more knowledge out there than some realize, but its in the hands of a very, very few real teachers. The rest are just rearranging ways to hit somebody as hard as they can while they wear the 'emperors new stripes.' 99.99% have no clue.

That is the unfortunate part about this stuff, is the number of so called experts who, when put to the test of time, reveal their inadequacies in such a way that all you want to do is rub their noses in it.

I have been recently involved in discussions with a "Grandmaster" who when asked, "What if you can't quite get the angle and direction right when it's real?", answered, "Just keep hitting until they fall down."

My answer would have been, "Make sure you train it hard enough and often enough and right enough in the dojo. Then when it's real, the previous question will not apply."

--Dave

 

[Doc]

That is the unfortunate part about this stuff, is the number of so called experts who, when put to the test of time, reveal their inadequacies in such a way that all you want to do is rub their noses in it.

I have been recently involved in discussions with a "Grandmaster" who when asked, "What if you can't quite get the angle and direction right when it's real?", answered, "Just keep hitting until they fall down."

My answer would have been, "Make sure you train it hard enough and often enough and right enough in the dojo. Then when it's real, the previous question will not apply."

--Dave

Try this on for size. The proper angles and directions mean nothing, if the proper posture is not achieved. That's what we train for, and with the proper mechanics, have no problem in execution.

 

[D.Cobb]

Try this on for size. The proper angles and directions mean nothing, if the proper posture is not achieved. That's what we train for, and with the proper mechanics, have no problem in execution.

I'm not sure if I'm wording this right.....

When I maintain correct and functional body posture, and I utilise correct and functional bio mechanics, then I don't need to consider Angle and Direction, because they will present themselves due to the aforementioned posture and mechanics.

Does that make sense? (It's past my bedtime)

--Dave

 

[Doc]

I'm not sure if I'm wording this right.....

When I maintain correct and functional body posture, and I utilise correct and functional bio mechanics, then I don't need to consider Angle and Direction, because they will present themselves due to the aforementioned posture and mechanics.

Does that make sense? (It's past my bedtime)

--Dave

Makes all the sense in the world. And if you were standing here, I'd show it to you. Of all the 'experts' I've ever heard, no one ever speaks of posture. And the one thing I learned from my teacher is that posture is everything.