A question re. pressure points.

[thetruth]

Forgive me if this becomes a little disjointed as typing thoughts as they come to me. George Dillman essentially introduced pressure points to the western world and popularised them. He did this by going to a few seminars, taking video of them and going home and from what little info he had he nutted out how they work (this is just general not meant to be detailed). He went on to knock people out all over the world as did his students.

My old instructor in Australia went over to learn of George and came back doing the same thing. He eventually stopped knocking people all the way out due to the harm it can cause. A lady who could see peoples aura was over in the states when my instructor was over there and when some people were knocked out their aura disappeared.

My old instructor is also the only person under 45 i know who has had brain cancer and a heart attack (and he is pretty fit, not overweight).

Do you think there was a reason the chinese/okinawans did not show the western world this part of their art?? The western ego perhaps?

To be hitting/tapping points on others there has to be karmic recourse of some sort. If ones intentions are not pure when practicing such things and are more along the lines of 'look what i can do' or 'see how good i am'; do you think that the energy of the person hitting is effected in a negative way?

I also believe that it is intentions that make the difference in what I'm saying. By this I mean that if you practice an art that does not utilize pressure points and are hitting using blunt force trauma then even if you inadvertantly hit points the karmic consequences to you are miniscule compared to if your intentions were to hit certain areas and affect that persons energy.

We are all connected energetically so I really believe people should be super careful when messing with such things.

Just some thoughts. What do people think??

Have a super day
Cheers
Sam

 

[Flying Crane]

A lady who could see peoples aura was over in the states when my instructor was over there and when some people were knocked out their aura disappeared.

Well I don't know about the rest, but I would be suspicious of this bit.

 

[MJS]

I'm far from a pressure point expert, but they do have their place. IMO, I feel that they're best used against a grabbing type of attack. Personally, I'm not one for being on the receiving end of constantly being KO'd. Not sure if any long term damage is/can be done, but I would think that nothing good can come from that.

Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

He may have introduces it to much of the western world but he would watch my instructor do nerve strikes at tournament and talk with people like Dr. Pai about such things years befor he really learned much about them from the man he claims taught him.

 

[SAVAGE]

I study pressure points and if STRUCK...you can cause serious damage...but as for no touch,aura and all that other myth stuff...refer to my response in the the no touch knock out thread....George Dillman has benn proven to be a charlatan...period!

 

[eyebeams]

Forgive me if this becomes a little disjointed as typing thoughts as they come to me. George Dillman essentially introduced pressure points to the western world and popularised them. He did this by going to a few seminars, taking video of them and going home and from what little info he had he nutted out how they work (this is just general not meant to be detailed). He went on to knock people out all over the world as did his students.

Not really, no. Dillman studied with some Okinawans pretty briefly ad then filled in the rest from derivations of other things. Touch knockoouts are categorically fraudulent as a self-defense technique. All Okinawan arts that study pressure points legitimately also practice some form of full contact fighting and body conditioning.

This is because the locations of meridians and tsubo are not really meant to be memorized in exactly detail as much as bring home certain ways of striking and picking targets. The key to this is to learn what is called the "slow" or "dead" hand and the proper angle of attack. This is generally at a 90 degree angle to the orientation of the tsubo.

Do you think there was a reason the chinese/okinawans did not show the western world this part of their art?? The western ego perhaps?

No; they did. It's never been a secret. You can quickly deduce proper methods from studying easy to acquire texts. The reason things like Hohan Soken's charts are important is more of a lineage thing.

To be hitting/tapping points on others there has to be karmic recourse of some sort. If ones intentions are not pure when practicing such things and are more along the lines of 'look what i can do' or 'see how good i am'; do you think that the energy of the person hitting is effected in a negative way?

The purpose of hitting pressure points is to perfect the aspect of fighting that incorporates one's positional relationship with an attacker more fully, as opposed to perfected the movements without the relationship. Same thing with control techniques. Finally, one learns to apply these skills for therapeutic purposes. A tsubo that has a heavy yo/yang presentation typically causes muscle spasms when struck, but can be dissipated using more gentle means to relieve muscle stiffness.

I also believe that it is intentions that make the difference in what I'm saying. By this I mean that if you practice an art that does not utilize pressure points and are hitting using blunt force trauma then even if you inadvertantly hit points the karmic consequences to you are miniscule compared to if your intentions were to hit certain areas and affect that persons energy.

Pressure point techniques are merely a more efficient means of delivering blunt force trauma.

We are all connected energetically so I really believe people should be super careful when messing with such things.

Just some thoughts. What do people think??

I do not share your beliefs.

 

[D.Cobb]

My old instructor in Australia went over to learn of George and came back doing the same thing. He eventually stopped knocking people all the way out due to the harm it can cause. A lady who could see peoples aura was over in the states when my instructor was over there and when some people were knocked out their aura disappeared.

My old instructor is also the only person under 45 i know who has had brain cancer and a heart attack (and he is pretty fit, not overweight).

Did you know, Sam that your old instructor spent a whole 2 months with Mr. D. and thats how he got 6th Dan.

Do you think there was a reason the chinese/okinawans did not show the western world this part of their art?? The western ego perhaps?

There are some people, trained in the Chinese arts, that believe the Okinawans got almost none of the information relating to pressure point combat, and that the Japanese got even less.

To be hitting/tapping points on others there has to be karmic recourse of some sort. If ones intentions are not pure when practicing such things and are more along the lines of 'look what i can do' or 'see how good i am'; do you think that the energy of the person hitting is effected in a negative way?

Newtons Law my friend. For EVERY ACTION there MUST be an EQUAL and OPPOSITE REACTION. I guess you can draw your own conclusion.

I also believe that it is intentions that make the difference in what I'm saying. By this I mean that if you practice an art that does not utilize pressure points and are hitting using blunt force trauma then even if you inadvertantly hit points the karmic consequences to you are miniscule compared to if your intentions were to hit certain areas and affect that persons energy.

I would agree that this is true. How many times do we see videos and seminars, where the guy says, "Never strike this point, it's a kill shot"? Then he belts the absolute Bejaysus out of some silly volunteer, and he doesn't die.... It's all about intent. If you had the mindset of the ancient warriors, then your intent would be to kill. Then I reckon that the death point would work.

We are all connected energetically so I really believe people should be super careful when messing with such things.

Scientists have run tests and proven that energetically, we are all connected. So yes I believe that what you say is right.

Have a super day

I will, you do the same

--Dave

 

[thetruth]

Welcome back Cobby

 

[D.Cobb]

Thanks mate, glad to be here

 

[Gentle Fist]

Forgive me if this becomes a little disjointed as typing thoughts as they come to me. George Dillman essentially introduced pressure points to the western world and popularized them. He did this by going to a few seminars, taking video of them and going home and from what little info he had he nutted out how they work (this is just general not meant to be detailed). He went on to knock people out all over the world as did his students.

I disagree with Dillman introducing pressure points to the Western World, since plenty of Juijitsu masters have been teaching in the states long before Dillman started Martial Arts.

I agree with you in the fact that he is notorious for the no touch knock out. I have never seen such a thing, but I guess anything is possible. Has anyone one this board seen Dillman in person, can he knock anyone out that is not one of his students?

 

[thetruth]

Forgive me if this becomes a little disjointed as typing thoughts as they come to me. George Dillman essentially introduced pressure points to the western world and popularized them. He did this by going to a few seminars, taking video of them and going home and from what little info he had he nutted out how they work (this is just general not meant to be detailed). He went on to knock people out all over the world as did his students.

I disagree with Dillman introducing pressure points to the Western World, since plenty of Juijitsu masters have been teaching in the states long before Dillman started Martial Arts.

I agree with you in the fact that he is notorious for the no touch knock out. I have never seen such a thing, but I guess anything is possible. Has anyone one this board seen Dillman in person, can he knock anyone out that is not one of his students?

Let me rephrase then. Dillman popularised pressure points and made them a very known quantity.

 

[Hand Sword]

I beleive that they exist, and anything is possible. However, all of the touch stuff is done by a volunteer standing there allowing it to happen. It's a whole other thing in a full speed engagement against an unwilling participant. Hitting the major stuff is hard enough, let alone all of the little spots on the body.

 

[D.Cobb]

I beleive that they exist, and anything is possible. However, all of the touch stuff is done by a volunteer standing there allowing it to happen. It's a whole other thing in a full speed engagement against an unwilling participant.

Dude, you are quite right. I have had this discussion with Dillman people and his breakaway group of wannabes at Kyusho International. None of them will accept that they aren't doing it right. Somewhere on this board, you'll find a thread where myself and the infamous RyuShiKan, got stuck into some of the DKI guys.

Hitting the major stuff is hard enough, let alone all of the little spots on the body.

That's why you train.... If you look at the very first drill you ever learnt, I'll bet you couldn't do it on a senior rank in sparring the first time you tried it. A few years later, with a bit of training under your belt, I'll reckon that you can do it at least some of the time.
Pressure point striking is the same. You train it, and you drill it and when you need to you can do it. Also, the area of activation, is about the size of a human eye. Instead of seeing little dots all over your opponent, imagine him covered in eyes.

Seriously though, if you can't train it at speed, then how do you know if it will work on the street?

--Dave

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i have limited belief in the combat effectiveness of pressure points. while there's definitely something going on there (otherwise accupressure and accupuncture wouldn't work), they seem like awful small targets to try and strike when the bad guy is coming at you full speed with intent.

also, i had a long talk with a guy from idaho who used to do 'tap knockouts' by manipulating pressure points at seminars, parties and the like. he refuses to do so anymore, and tries to get others to stop. he says that several people he used to do that to developed long-term health problems later on. he blames is irresponsible manipulation of their chi for this.

any thoughts?

 

[Doc]

I beleive that they exist, and anything is possible. However, all of the touch stuff is done by a volunteer standing there allowing it to happen. It's a whole other thing in a full speed engagement against an unwilling participant. Hitting the major stuff is hard enough, let alone all of the little spots on the body.

Not really. We have no problem with it when body mechanics are executed properly.

 

[Hand Sword]

If that's really true, then that's trully great. But, if you are referring to class with students, then again, that's with willing participants. They know how to "move" properly. An attacker won't, and will throw and move from weird angles. Do you train for this, a "street fight" scenario, or are your mechanics designed to fit in with other proper movements?

 

[D.Cobb]

If that's really true, then that's trully great. But, if you are referring to class with students, then again, that's with willing participants. They know how to "move" properly. An attacker won't, and will throw and move from weird angles. Do you train for this, a "street fight" scenario, or are your mechanics designed to fit in with other proper movements?

Do you train for self defence in street situations? How do you do this? I'm sure, if your school does reality self defence training then you would probably do similar if not the same sort of drills, scenario/ role playing etc. that we do.

Believe me sir, if you do not successfully stop the attack that is coming your way in our hall, then you will be hurt. That is to say that at no time is your attacker/ training partner going to be compliant in the initial attack.

Just wondering sir, what style do you train in?

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Not really. We have no problem with it when body mechanics are executed properly.

My point exactly sir. If you train it like it was real, then when it is real you'll do it like you trained it.

--Dave

 

[Hand Sword]

Do you train for self defence in street situations? How do you do this? --Dave

The same way as always. I get into fights! Growing up and now for quite awhile at work. Trust me sir, your dojo training partners move the way they were trained to, full speed or not. Those pin point mechanics used in the defenses fit those moves. People in real encounters don't move that way. As I said, no matter your training, it's hard enough to get the big targets, let alone focussing on pressure points on the body.

Keep it simple, forget about the touch stuff!

 

[Doc]

The same way as always. I get into fights! Growing up and now for quite awhile at work. Trust me sir, your dojo training partners move the way they were trained to, full speed or not. Those pin point mechanics used in the defenses fit those moves. People in real encounters don't move that way. As I said, no matter your training, it's hard enough to get the big targets, let alone focussing on pressure points on the body.

Clearly sir your experience and understanding of pressure points is quite limited. They don't work for you because no one has given you the knowledge or skill for their applications. My students and I have had more confrontations in a week than most have in a lifetime, and I am fairly familiar with the differences between the 'street' where I work, and the school environment.

Right now what you do works for you, but you should be cautious about condeming things you don't have knowledge of. They work, and very well. Full speed and improvised. Somedays, my life depends on it.