A question about fighting Vs knives

[charyuop]

I say immediately that I am one of those that Vs a knife probably would last 1-2 seconds hee hee.

I have seen many videos (training and real life) of hand Vs knife. If the one who is armed has technique the discassion is different, but if it is a normal street criminal with no training thing change.

In my opinion, and here I am asking if right or not to you, MA are very good against a knife. Let's not forget that many MA were created centuries ago where in Orient "mean bully SOBs" were a common thing.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but what kills most against a knife (always a not trained armed man) is fear. If I see a knife my attention is 100% on it, ignoring the rest of the body.
I have seen a video where an armed man was keeping the right distance with the left arm from the victim having ready the knife in the right hand wide on his side. Now if instead of trying to reach for the arm with the blade wouldn't have been easier grabbing the other arm attempting for a joint blockage?
Other times I have seen people trying to stab with a wide swing. Instead of stepping back or try to catch the arm wouldn't be easier to step forward?

I am not trying to say that disarming a knife is easy, mind me. What I would like you to tell me is if I am right that if the pertantage of victory of a hand Vs knife might be 30% Vs 70%, when you concentrate too much on the knife because of the fear it becomes 10% Vs 90%.

 

[Jesse]

The number one thing that you have to do is take care of that knife. I knife will kill you where as a blow with the weaker unarmed hand will probably not.
With my training, we are taught to attack the arm that is swinging at you (the knife arm)

Its a fact that if you are up against a knife attacker, your going to get cut. You just have to make sure not to get hit one of the 6 major artories.

Inner left and right thigh
Left and ride side of the neck
Left and ride side palm side wrist.

These are the major areas that will cause you to bleed out fast, there are of course other areas, but these ones don't take much effort to hit. Protect those and of course your internals and make sure you get that knife out.

 

[OUMoose]

Just a couple minor things, as I'm no expert by any stretch.

1) Never look for a disarm. If it presents itself to you, fine, but controlling the weapon hand (or arm if you can) is the idea. Hunting for a disarm is an excellent way to get yourself killed.

2) Never forget about the live hand (empty hand). My previous instructor always told me the empty hand is the dangerous one, because as you said yourself, you're not paying attention to it. I could bait you with my knife hand, then knock you cold with an overhand cross or a hook, or something more inventive. Plus, you have no idea if I have another weapon ready to go just in case you do get a hold of the one you could see. Who knows, I might be waiting for you to try to lock up the knife hand so you're close enough that I can stab you with the other knife I have on my belt. :idunno:

Just some food for thought.

 

[charyuop]

Man I am so glad I live in a very small town and chances it will happen are very tiny.
Anyway I am always convinced that hand Vs knife is always a matter of speed....thus RUN FAST!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am kidding, but I am serious at the same time).

 

[Swordlady]

Anyway I am always convinced that hand Vs knife is always a matter of speed....thus RUN FAST!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am kidding, but I am serious at the same time).

Actually...running AWAY would be a very good idea. Best way to survive a knife fight is to avoid getting into one.

 

[pstarr]

Yes, whenever possible, RUN!!!

If that isn't an option (for whatever reason), then grab the nearest item you can get your hands on and use it as a weapon...chairs, ashtrays,, anything. Even slipping off your belt (especially if you wear one with a nice cowboy-style buckle on it) and turning it into a flail is better than nothing.

If you have nothing to use as a weapon, resolve yourself to the fact that you're going to have to kill the opponent. You'll likely get hit but make up your mind that you're going to take his life...

 

[KenpoTex]

When comes to empty hand vs. knife there are no easy answers. Your best defense is to avoid engaging at all if possible...in other words, run like hell. Failing that, create space while deploying a weapon if your carrying one, if not, try to find one.

As far as actual technique goes, I've seen very few, if any, traditional martial-arts techniques, including those from the system I study (American Kenpo), that I would feel confident using against someone who was attacking in a committed "rapid-fire blitz" manner. Don't believe me? Try using these tech.'s agains someone who's actually trying 100% to stab you with a training knife...you're going to get nailed. (Note: I'm not trying to step on any toes here. I'm just calling it like I see it and trying to inject a dose of reality, so no whining please)

In my (admittedly inexpert) oppinion, the best EH vs. knife material out there is the Red Zone (or similar) material. I've worked this at 100% resistance with training partners and have had a high degree of success with it.

As far as disarms go, I prefer the "blunt trauma" disarm...In other words, beat them 'till they can no longer hold on to the knife. Of course, 4 or 5 rounds to COM from a safe distance works also

 

[Carol]

Something to think about...when working your knife techs, do it in a way where you KNOW when you are getting hit. Run techs with training blades chilled down in a deep freeze. Or, Dr. Dave's (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka) experience training with FMAists involved covrering the blades with black marker in and then looking to see how much ink is on you after you run your techs. A training blade doesn't always give enough feedback as to how seriousn a knife hit is.

 

[MJS]

In my (admittedly inexpert) oppinion, the best EH vs. knife material out there is the Red Zone (or similar) material. I've worked this at 100% resistance with training partners and have had a high degree of success with it.

Agreed! I've seen his first tape and was pretty impressed with what I saw. IMO, he certainly brought up some very good points and seperated the flash from the reality. Another similar method of defense is the material put out by Karl Tanswell. Great stuff and similar to the Red Zone.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I have seen a video where an armed man was keeping the right distance with the left arm from the victim having ready the knife in the right hand wide on his side. Now if instead of trying to reach for the arm with the blade wouldn't have been easier grabbing the other arm attempting for a joint blockage?

I would think that control of the weapon hand should be a priority, if leaving the area is not an option. Grabbing the other arm is not doing anything to control the weapon. As it was stated, a disarm is something that should come after control is gained. Just like a joint lock, they're something that, when presented to us, we take advantage of. Again, getting control of the weapon hand should be top on the list.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Just a couple minor things, as I'm no expert by any stretch.

1) Never look for a disarm. If it presents itself to you, fine, but controlling the weapon hand (or arm if you can) is the idea. Hunting for a disarm is an excellent way to get yourself killed.

2) Never forget about the live hand (empty hand). My previous instructor always told me the empty hand is the dangerous one, because as you said yourself, you're not paying attention to it. I could bait you with my knife hand, then knock you cold with an overhand cross or a hook, or something more inventive. Plus, you have no idea if I have another weapon ready to go just in case you do get a hold of the one you could see. Who knows, I might be waiting for you to try to lock up the knife hand so you're close enough that I can stab you with the other knife I have on my belt. :idunno:

Just some food for thought.

Great point! I've worked on this with my FMA instructor. Its amazing how we tend to forget about that other free hand and get so caught up with the weapon hand.

Mike

 

[KenpoTex]

Something to think about...when working your knife techs, do it in a way where you KNOW when you are getting hit. Run techs with training blades chilled down in a deep freeze. Or, Dr. Dave's (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka) experience training with FMAists involved covrering the blades with black marker in and then looking to see how much ink is on you after you run your techs. A training blade doesn't always give enough feedback as to how seriousn a knife hit is.

Agreed, my training partners and I use a variety of training knives ranging from simple foam "sticks" for full-contact/full-speed training to rubber, to aluminium. They all have their place. A couple of months ago we did the marker thing, the number of "wounds" on everyone definately serves as an eye-opener as to the truly dangerous nature of a conflict involving edged-weapons.

Agreed! I've seen his first tape and was pretty impressed with what I saw. IMO, he certainly brought up some very good points and seperated the flash from the reality. Another similar method of defense is the material put out by Karl Tanswell. Great stuff and similar to the Red Zone.

Mike

Is that the STAB material? I've heard good things about that as well but have not yet had the opportunity to see any of it.

If you have a chance to check out the second Red Zone tape, go for it, by the time he shot the second tape they had modified their "pickup" a little, the one they show in Vol. II works even better than the one in Vol. I. Basically, instead of merely checking/grabbing the arm with their hands as shown in Vol. I, they use a maneuver called the "Dive & Drive" (similar to what little I've seen of the SPEAR system) to catch and hug the arm prior to switching to the "baseball bat grip." Very effective stuff.

 

[MJS]

Is that the STAB material? I've heard good things about that as well but have not yet had the opportunity to see any of it.

Yes, thats the STAB program. It can be purchased off his site.

If you have a chance to check out the second Red Zone tape, go for it, by the time he shot the second tape they had modified their "pickup" a little, the one they show in Vol. II works even better than the one in Vol. I. Basically, instead of merely checking/grabbing the arm with their hands as shown in Vol. I, they use a maneuver called the "Dive & Drive" (similar to what little I've seen of the SPEAR system) to catch and hug the arm prior to switching to the "baseball bat grip." Very effective stuff.

Sounds good! Thanks for the description of the material! Sounds like I'll have to check it out!:ultracool

Mike

 

[Swordlady]

Something to think about...when working your knife techs, do it in a way where you KNOW when you are getting hit. Run techs with training blades chilled down in a deep freeze. Or, Dr. Dave's (Kembudo-Kai Kempoka) experience training with FMAists involved covrering the blades with black marker in and then looking to see how much ink is on you after you run your techs. A training blade doesn't always give enough feedback as to how seriousn a knife hit is.

My Yagyu sensei and I sparred with rubber training knives a while ago. We both managed to tag each other multiple times, and those rubber knives HURT. Sensei is much better with a knife than I am, but I still managed to land a few blows to his vital areas. If anything else, that sparring exercise showed that no matter how skilled you are (or not), you are going to get hit.

I have been learning some Aikido takedowns against tanto strikes. They work well enough in the dojo, but something tells me that they aren't too practical in a "real life" situations.

 

[King]

If anything else, that sparring exercise showed that no matter how skilled you are (or not), you are going to get hit.

Great statement.

My sensei organized a group of us and we sparred with plastic knives using different scenarios. 1vs1, 2vs1, 3v1, 2vs2, 2vs3, 3vs3... ect using one knife or two knives. People came out with unique stances and moves depending on experience. Some had training and some not. But it didn't matter how good or bad you are, the final conclusion was "if you get into a knife fight, expect to get cut".

Which sounds very simillar to what was said above.

 

[Phadrus00]

Hey All!

First off some great points here by all. Especially about the fact that getting cut by the knife is HIGHLY likely in any scenario and that running away is the most desirable (and effective) defense.

I teach FMA and have done a lot of knife work and STILL I get tagged in knife sparring regularly (especially my particularly vulnerable tummy region.. *lol*). To the original poster I would recommend NOT assuming that the average knife wielder is going to be less effective. It takes NOTHING to train someone how to cut with a knife, it is a simple, efficient and natural weapon to learn. While they may have sloppy technique, a sharp knife still bites through flesh easily and even a non-lethal cut (ie not to a magor artery) can quickly incapacitate you due to pain and shock.

If you are FORCED to deal with a knife then attempt to control the range with a longer weapon like a belt or a stick or even a shoe. Train targetting the weapon HAND and not the weapon itself. If you can break their thumb thy cannot hold the weapon. Barring that drill capturing and controlling the weapon hand. We also stress training against feignts and learning how to quickly defend high and low and turning the body. There are some wonderful knife drills in the FMA but ultimately it can come to nothing if they are faster than you are. If you see a knife RUN AWAY!

Regards,
Rob

 

[charyuop]

Another question that might sound rather stupid, but I gotta ask.

If I get stabbed, let's say in my stomach, is it wise grabbing the hand with knife before the attacker pulls the knife out? To go in shock takes few seconds and if he pulls the blade back the shock will leave me basically "still".

 

[OUMoose]

Another question that might sound rather stupid, but I gotta ask.

If I get stabbed, let's say in my stomach, is it wise grabbing the hand with knife before the attacker pulls the knife out? To go in shock takes few seconds and if he pulls the blade back the shock will leave me basically "still".

Hmmm. I would have to say that's a bad idea. If you grab onto his hand with a blade in your gut, he/she is going to start fighting you to pull it out. Most likely, this will compound the damage severely. Plus, you just got stabbed in the gut! Getting away and surviving should be top priority, not continuing to fight.

If it's an untrained/unskilled knife fighter, they'll probably lose the knife on a stab anyways, since muscle contraction will lodge the knife in you (likely, but not always). Hence, you're actually better off in terms of infection/blood loss.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

My Yagyu sensei and I sparred with rubber training knives a while ago. We both managed to tag each other multiple times, and those rubber knives HURT. Sensei is much better with a knife than I am, but I still managed to land a few blows to his vital areas. If anything else, that sparring exercise showed that no matter how skilled you are (or not), you are going to get hit.

I have been learning some Aikido takedowns against tanto strikes. They work well enough in the dojo, but something tells me that they aren't too practical in a "real life" situations.

Anytime someone asks me what's the best thing to do against a knife my first answer, though intended humorously, is the same:

"About 40 MPH".

 

[Kensai]

I always thought it'd be an idea to carry a small stone (say, an inch across?) in my pocket. From 4 or 5 feet away, I figure I could throw one as hard as I could in a potential attackers face. If I missed, it'd at least make them duck, perhaps giving me time to run? If it hit, it'd hurt like a b*****d, and could give an opening? Just an idea, I'm not an expert on knives, or knife fighting, I do know that they're bloody dangerous.

If I've not been able to avoid the situation, and I'm up a certain creek, I'm thinking trying to find anything to arm myself with, or use as an inpromptu shield.