A question about checks

[MattJ]

Does anyone know how checks came about to exist in American kenpo? From what I have seen they did not exist in the early years (50's and 60's). They appear to have come about in the 70's sometime. I am aware that Mr. Parker incorporated elements from other styles (small circle theory, for example), but am curious as to where checks came from.

Wing Chun and some of the FMA's use similar concepts, but checks do not seem to be native to any of the other kenpo/kempo arts that EPAK sprang from.

Any ideas?

 

[MattJ]

Nothin' ?

 

[Ceicei]

Have you done a search through this forum? Checks have been discussed quite a bit. As far as I know, checks have been a part of American Kenpo for a long, long time, way before the 70's. What lead you to think they did not exist in the 50's/60's?

Let me know if you haven't been able to find your answers using the search. In the meantime, perhaps others may respond with the origins of checks.

- Ceicei

 

[Kenpodoc]

Have you done a search through this forum? Checks have been discussed quite a bit. As far as I know, checks have been a part of American Kenpo for a long, long time, way before the 70's. What lead you to think they did not exist in the 50's/60's?

Let me know if you haven't been able to find your answers using the search. In the meantime, perhaps others may respond with the origins of checks.

- Ceicei

if you watch the old 8 mm film from the early '60's the checks are not there also if you look at the Tracy techniques the checks are fewer and less emphasized. My guess is that the checks came from a combination of Ark Wong, Mr. Parkers Philipino friends and personal experience but I was not there to answer for sure. Perhaps doc will come in to continue to set me straight.

I do know that Huk Planas talks about the checks as a later addition to Kenpo but believe that they predated his start with Mr. Parker.

Jeff

 

[MattJ]

Thanks Jeff. Reading Mr. Parker's early books made no mention of checks, and having viewed some of the early films myself, I did not see them, either.

I was wondering about a CMA or possibly FMA connection for where checks came from. I am assuming they were introduced in the 70's or possibly the late 60's? Perhaps Mr. Parker saw the Chi Sao aspect of Wing Chun or perhaps the arm grabbing from Panajakman and got an idea?

I am not discounting that he may have had some other epiphany a la the reverse-motion/film rewind episode, just trying to get an idea.

BTW - I did do a search. I did not find anything in the 11+ pages of results about the ORIGINS of checks.

 

[Doc]

if you watch the old 8 mm film from the early '60's the checks are not there also if you look at the Tracy techniques the checks are fewer and less emphasized. My guess is that the checks came from a combination of Ark Wong, Mr. Parkers Philipino friends and personal experience but I was not there to answer for sure. Perhaps doc will come in to continue to set me straight.

I do know that Huk Planas talks about the checks as a later addition to Kenpo but believe that they predated his start with Mr. Parker.

Jeff

You're exacly right sir. The 'checks' as we know them, were inherent in the teachings of Ark Yuey Wong. The resemblance can be more readily observed in the 'Splashing Hands' of Huamea Lefiti as he studied under Ark Wong. Truthfully, it would be very difficult to come up with a componant that wasn't represented from Ark Wong. Ed Parker changed terminology of course, but every interpretation of the Parker Lineage after he made the leap away from His initial 'Kenpo Karate,' has its roots in the Chinese Martial Arts as interpreted by those two teachers, and to a lesser extent as well as, influenced by Jimmy Woo. This influenced can be seen as well in another Parker Lineage through Grand Master Tuumumao "Tino" Tuiolosega, in Lima Lama.

 

[Ray]

<edited. Never mind.>

 

[MattJ]

Thanks for the response, Doc. So, I assume that checks were added in the late 60's or early 70's?

 

[HKphooey]

<edited. Never mind.>

Come on Ray!!! I liked your explanation!

 

[Doc]

Thanks for the response, Doc. So, I assume that checks were added in the late 60's or early 70's?

What checks, incorporated in to which interpretation?

Some of us fall into the habit of speaking in inclusive absolute terms sprinkled with possessive pronouns. Which particular 'checks,' and which of the major Parker Kenpo interpretation are you speaking?

See how easy it is to get confusing? There are many different kinds of 'checks.' Not all of them found their way into all of Parker Kenpo Lineages.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Name a part of "five Swords" that is not a check. Then quit using it.
Sean

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Name a part of "five Swords" that is not a check. Then quit using it.
Sean

Kewpie doll for the man in the gi.

 

[nlkenpo]

In Mr. Paul Dye's teachings at the IKC's in Holland this year he did some of the old techniques to show how the evolution of techniques worked.

In that seminar Mr. Dye told us that Mr. Parker in the old days mainly worked with people who came from other systems and therefore had a solid foundation of basics already, before they started doing Kenpo.
Those guys didn't need the kind of checks that are used in nowadays Kenpo because all the strikes they executed, actually worked. They were so called "painchecks". To clarify, let me give an example (my own, not Mr. Dye's).

In alternating maces the initial block stays on top of the arms as a check, to prevent the arms from coming up. If, however, you execute the 2nd move (vertical punch to the plexus) correctly, the least likely way those arms are going to go is up!
SO: if the 2nd move is executed correctly, no extra check is needed. The people Mr. Parker worked with in the beginning, tended to execute their 2nd moves correctly. BUT, Mr. Parker wanted to make the system suitable for everybody, effective for beginners too. That was why the extra checks were inplied.

The period of time this took place should indeed be 60's/70's.
I hope I paraphrased Mr. Dye's teachings correctly. Don't pin me down on details, but this was the general line of his story.

Regards,
Marcel

 

[Doc]

In Mr. Paul Dye's teachings at the IKC's in Holland this year he did some of the old techniques to show how the evolution of techniques worked.

In that seminar Mr. Dye told us that Mr. Parker in the old days mainly worked with people who came from other systems and therefore had a solid foundation of basics already, before they started doing Kenpo.
Those guys didn't need the kind of checks that are used in nowadays Kenpo because all the strikes they executed, actually worked. They were so called "painchecks". To clarify, let me give an example (my own, not Mr. Dye's).

In alternating maces the initial block stays on top of the arms as a check, to prevent the arms from coming up. If, however, you execute the 2nd move (vertical punch to the plexus) correctly, the least likely way those arms are going to go is up!
SO: if the 2nd move is executed correctly, no extra check is needed. The people Mr. Parker worked with in the beginning, tended to execute their 2nd moves correctly. BUT, Mr. Parker wanted to make the system suitable for everybody, effective for beginners too. That was why the extra checks were inplied.

The period of time this took place should indeed be 60's/70's.
I hope I paraphrased Mr. Dye's teachings correctly. Don't pin me down on details, but this was the general line of his story.

Regards,
Marcel

So let me get this straight. Paul said Mr. Parker put in 'checks' because without 'checks' the 'system wouldn't work for everybody?

While it is true most came from other styles and already had a working knowledge of the arts, the story suggests that Parker knew 'checks' but didn't need to teach them to certain people because they didn't need them because they were effective already. So by this logic, if Parker taught you 'checks,' it was because he didn't think you were any good?

So did Paul ever tell you where he got this info from sir, because he definitely wasn't there?

 

[MJS]

You're exacly right sir. The 'checks' as we know them, were inherent in the teachings of Ark Yuey Wong. The resemblance can be more readily observed in the 'Splashing Hands' of Huamea Lefiti as he studied under Ark Wong. Truthfully, it would be very difficult to come up with a componant that wasn't represented from Ark Wong. Ed Parker changed terminology of course, but every interpretation of the Parker Lineage after he made the leap away from His initial 'Kenpo Karate,' has its roots in the Chinese Martial Arts as interpreted by those two teachers, and to a lesser extent as well as, influenced by Jimmy Woo. This influenced can be seen as well in another Parker Lineage through Grand Master Tuumumao "Tino" Tuiolosega, in Lima Lama.

Doc,

Checks IMO, play a big part in the system. Reading this, it seems like the individuals mentioned are the ones who get the credit for them being there today. What were the techniques like without them? I mean, its hard to imagine the techs. without them seeing that they're such an important area.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Doc,

Checks IMO, play a big part in the system. Reading this, it seems like the individuals mentioned are the ones who get the credit for them being there today. What were the techniques like without them? I mean, its hard to imagine the techs. without them seeing that they're such an important area.

Mike

The 'techniques,' sans 'checks,' were the initial 'kenpo karate' interpretation as he learned from Chow that were heavily influenced by Japanese/Okinawan arts, including the Jiu-jitsu of Henry Okazaki. The naked hand in the chambered hip 'Index' position in these arts is well known in their applications.

As far as historical credit, 'checks' of various types were always a part of the Chinese Arts, so to give credit to a couple of people because someone studied the art and used them, would be like giving the makers of a pen credit for your 'writing.' It is a given you need a 'pen' to write, as it is a given the Chinese Arts have 'checks.'

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Name a part of "five Swords" that is not a check. Then quit using it.
Sean

The neutral bow. LOL as if...

 

[MattJ]

Doc -

I was referring to the standard pinning checks like palm to the elbow, or knee checks. My (admittedly cursory) study of other kenpo systems of that era (50's-60's) did not show them up anywhere, so I was curious where they might have come from and approximately when they were added to the system.

 

[Doc]

Doc -

I was referring to the standard pinning checks like palm to the elbow, or knee checks. My (admittedly cursory) study of other kenpo systems of that era (50's-60's) did not show them up anywhere, so I was curious where they might have come from and approximately when they were added to the system.

I really don't understand the question sir. You need to be very specific. "palm to elbow" ???? "Knee check." ?????

 

[MattJ]

???????

I did not realize this would be so difficult. A knee check as in the first move of Five Swords where your right leg is checking the opponent's right leg.

Checking with your hand to the opponent's wrist, elbow, shoulder etc.