9/11--Was it an inside job?

[Makalakumu]

The idea that a plane would hit a major skyscraper, in a pre arranged way, so that carefully positioned explosives could then bring it down in a controlled manner....with no one involved saying anything 10 years later....is unlikely.
Highly improbable.

Unless.

Unless, who knows? Bob, people stop themselves from doing things with self limiting thoughts. What if these self limiting thoughts were applied to thinking about making something like this happen? What if your socialization against thinking evil things makes it impossible for you to imagine REAL ways to do evil things? It always goes back to Megadeaths for me. What are people who think in Megadeaths capable of? Can you even imagine being in those shoes? What kind of mind does it take to think that way? What else are they capable of?

 

[Makalakumu]

And the doubt still looms..

oh and also, i don't believe Osama was behind it...he was a patsy.

Maybe he was a patsy. Maybe Osama isn't his real name. Maybe he doesn't really have a birth certificate? LOL!

No investigation will ever be able to explain this because almost all of the evidence was carted away and slagged. There is no chance to really support any theory. People are superimposing conclusions on places where only questions should exist.

 

[Makalakumu]

Pancake bunny.

Why can't you admit that you don't know? Ya'll take a listen to this.

 

[Sukerkin]

I love the "painted into a corner" cover on that book! Been there a couple of times myself in my university days - tricksy-tricksy economics professors .

 

[Indie12]

The idea that a plane would hit a major skyscraper, in a pre arranged way, so that carefully positioned explosives could then bring it down in a controlled manner....with no one involved saying anything 10 years later....is unlikely.
Highly improbable.

Unless.

The explosives had been part of the original construction.
Those involved in their installation didn't know what they were installing.
Those who did were in position in the building and willing to die too.
(sounds like the opening to an XFiles movie)

Now, we have -3- different buildings in NYC, all secretly wired when they were built.
Their detonations controled to minimize 'splash damage'.
Keyed to go off when exposed to flaming jet fuel.
A special never heard of material that can withstand years of exposure and neglect.

Using Area 51 holograms to hide ...

ok, sorry. That's just nuts.

Islamic Extremists, infiltrated the US, -legally-.
They avoided being red flagged, avoided detection, blended in, infiltrated the US.
They used our own people to help them, because they blended in and because the security folks, ****ed up. Repeatedly.
Negligence, incompetence, 'politics', poor judgment, poor follow up, poor communications and plain old 'cant happen here'.

There was no 'wired for explosion'.
No 'shear bolts'. No 'controlled detonation'. No 'holograms'.

4 planes were hijacked.
3 hit their targets.
1 hit the ground.

People died.

Do I think there are those in power or who were in power that knew more? That may have had information that could have lessened or even stopped it?
Yes.
Do I honestly think that it was a False Flag?
No.
Do I think it was planned by the US Government?
No.
Do I think Dubya was 'in' on it?
No.
Do I think people over react to it all?
Yes.
Do I think we need to better secure our borders, keep better track of non-citizens, and better screen those we allow in?
Yes.
Has my opinion of all this stuff changed over the years?
Yes.

Beyond that...I'm personally done with it all. My heart goes out to everyone who lost a friend, a coworker, a family member, a child, a spouse in the attacks. I hope that they someday, find peace.

Pax.

Just out of curiousity Pax, what are you basing this opinion on?

 

[swivel63]

And the doubt still looms..

oh and also, i don't believe Osama was behind it...he was a patsy.

doubt ALWAYS looms. does that mean that it's the complete opposite of what the official story is?

 

[Big Don]

Just out of curiousity Pax, what are you basing this opinion on?

His firm grasp of REALITY?

 

[Sukerkin]

Just a quick clarification, Indie, "Pax" was not the posters name; the poster was Bob Hubbard {MT site owner}.

"Pax" is Latin for "Peace" and I think Bob puts that at the end to show that, no matter how argumentative the subject, he is not posting to offend ... could be wrong there of course .

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Unless, who knows? Bob, people stop themselves from doing things with self limiting thoughts. What if these self limiting thoughts were applied to thinking about making something like this happen? What if your socialization against thinking evil things makes it impossible for you to imagine REAL ways to do evil things? It always goes back to Megadeaths for me. What are people who think in Megadeaths capable of? Can you even imagine being in those shoes? What kind of mind does it take to think that way? What else are they capable of?

My mind...sees things. I can walk in the thoughts of evil. I can honestly see possibilities.
It is possible the government was directly behind it.
It is possible that 'Islamic Terrorists' have infiltrated to the highest of offices.
It is possible that a vast and elaborate conspiracy has existed for years, and that 9/11 was the pinnacle.
It's all possible.
I'm looking at probable.
But trust me. I can think of stuff that would scare the pants off you.
(see my suggestion for the Fall of the US in a previous post)

Just out of curiousity Pax, what are you basing this opinion on?

10 years of deep digging the various conspiracy theories, numerous debates, research, laws of physics and probability, and discussion with some of those directly involved.

His firm grasp of REALITY?

Don, I'm an Egyptian. I live in de Nile.

Just a quick clarification, Indie, "Pax" was not the posters name; the poster was Bob Hubbard {MT site owner}.

"Pax" is Latin for "Peace" and I think Bob puts that at the end to show that, no matter how argumentative the subject, he is not posting to offend ... could be wrong there of course .

Yup. :asian:

 

[elder999]

Why can't you admit that you don't know? Ya'll take a listen to this.

Because I do. While the evidence of which you speak-which would, presumably, in your world, prove that archons of the Bavarian Illuminati, using secret alien stealth technology, set charges in the buildings, and that the planes were an elaborate hoax and that Osama Bin laden (who bragged more than once about 9/11 on video-oh, I guess the U.S. government made those too?) was a patsy-the "evidence" of which you speak is completely unecessary:

We know planes hit the twin towers.

We know how much the planes and their fuel weighed, and how fast they were traveling.

We know the construction of the buildings, and where they were hit-in the case of South Tower, we know precisely where it was hit from video.

Because we know the weight of the planes, how fast they were traveling,where they hit, and how the buildings were constructed, we can calculate and/or model nearly precisely what sort of damages were done to the buildings on impact.

We can further calculate, given the materials inside the building, probable effects from impact on fireproofing, and fuel load, precisely how hot the fire might have gotten at ceiling level in the impact zones.

We can quickly determine from this the loss of strength to the steel-not "melting" but enough heating took place to approach melting and quickly cause a loss of integrity.

As an important digression, the way I got into device neutralization? Just an interest in fire science-it was a requirement at Indian Point for me to be a firefighter, and I had to go to school for it every year-pretty much hated it. Most of the Hudson Valley, where I grew up, is dependent upon volunteer fire departments and ambulance corps, and we received better training than most volunteer firemen-I was coaxed into joining the local fire department through a sense of community obligation. Though the local fire department, I wound up taking classes in arson-investigation, and, after that, classes on recognizing explosive decices-from there it wasn't that big a step to neutralizing them.

In any case, one of the little facts I picked up along the way was this, and it's important that one think of the fires at the WTC as "room fires" after the planes' impact and fuel's ignition: the peak temperature at the ceiling in a house fire can reach as high as 1200 degrees centigrade within the first two minutes.

I'll repeat that : the temperature at the ceiling in a house fire-where, presumably, there are only ordinary combustibles-can reach 1200 degrees centigrade within the first two minutes.

That's 2192 degrees fahrenheit.

Even if the ceiling only averaged 900 degrees centigrade-which seems more likely given the flame charactersitics apparent from the video footage- that's 1652 degrees F.

The melting point of structural steel like that used at the WTC? About 1517 degrees fahrenheit-and this temperature needn't have been sustained at all in order to weaken the steel substantially-given the way that the building was constructed, it fell just the way it should under those conditions.

These are facts, based on evidence. Other explanations are-to misuse Ockham's Razor as so many others do-largely superfluous. You can say that little grey men from Area 51 set the fires, or that it was a controlled demolition. I'm even familiar-unlike others-of several ways that it could have been done. It's entirely possible to make the buildings shake themselves to bits, and they'd probably have fallen about the same way. In any case,though:

We all saw the planes hit the buildings, and, given the evidence: the buildings, construction,etc.-no further explanation is necessary.

T

 

[Sukerkin]

Much as I have my admitted doubts about the 'public' story on the WTC attack, it is really hard to argue against such detailed rebuttals as that when it comes to the civil engineering nitty-gritty :bows:.

 

[Makalakumu]

...precisely how hot the fire might have gotten at ceiling level in the impact zones.

Thousands of experts with as much or more experience then you have disagreed. Four more have joined since this thread began, btw.

We all saw the planes hit the buildings, and, given the evidence: the buildings, construction,etc.-no further explanation is necessary.

Never mind the fact that you don't really know what happened. A simple philosophic test invalidates the whole argument, because the explanation, based on the evidence, is preposterous. If you can use your experience and guess at the actual forces and stresses involved, other people with as much or more experience can guess at other values. In the end, there is no way to determine what happened because the evidence is gone. No new investigation is possible.

 

[Archangel M]

"Experts"...right.

 

[elder999]

Thousands of experts with as much or more experience then you have disagreed. Four more have joined since this thread began, btw.



Never mind the fact that you don't really know what happened. A simple philosophic test invalidates the whole argument, because the explanation, based on the evidence, is preposterous. If you can use your experience and guess at the actual forces and stresses involved, other people with as much or more experience can guess at other values. In the end, there is no way to determine what happened because the evidence is gone. No new investigation is possible.

Except I'm not "guessing", John:

Weight of a fueled 767: 395,000 lbs.
Weight of a fueled 767, less travel distance from Boston to the WTC, per flight path data from the plane's transponders: 390,000 lbs.

Those are facts, not guesses-they are, at worst, good ballpark estimates.

Speed of planes as they struck the WTC, based on estimates from video footage and transponder data:480 mph.

All of the data on the b uildings themselves was a matter of public record.

No new investigation is necessary.

 

[Archangel M]

On your "experts":

http://ae911truth.info/wordpress/topten/changing-list/

The key to the AE911Truth presentation is a list of “all” characteristics of controlled demolition. Any presenter for the group gives this list first and then compares features of the WTC collapses to the list. As the talk progresses, the presenter checks each off and thus appears to demonstrate that the WTC collapses had to be controlled demolitions.

However, the group possesses no credible authority for presenting such a list. The founder, Richard Gage, is an architect by training, not a demolition expert. Since it’s evident that the group has simply drawn the list up based on things they think they observe in the collapses, the list is actually an example of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

For example, AE911Truth changes the list based on whether they believe they can demonstrate the characteristic. This was done recently when Gage admitted that he could not prove the existence of “squibs” in the collapse of 7 World Trade. Instead of recognizing the weakness of his argument, he simply changed the list for 7 World Trade to eliminate the “squibs” feature.

Indeed, the current version of the presentation slideshow first gives a list of CD characteristics, then changes it slightly for 7 World Trade, and then changes it even more substantially for the Towers. AE911Truth cannot win even when it stacks the deck for itself!

http://ae911truth.info/wordpress/topten/sources/

Richard Gage freely admits to borrowing from others, but never to the extent you would imagine.

His entire presentation rests on the work done by others, people like Steven Jones, Jim Hoffman, Kevin Ryan, and David Ray Griffin. He also uses clips from and promotes a variety of 9/11 conspiracy films. The most predominant are 911 Mysteries and Loose Change. A variety of other arguments long seen in the debunking wars make their way into the presentation. I’ve seen evidence that even the slides that make up his presentation came from the slideshows of others.

In doing so, Gage is resting on broken reeds. Almost every one of these people are speaking outside their areas of expertise.

The closest are Steven Jones, a physicist, and Kevin Ryan, a chemist. Jones, once caught up in the cold fusion debacle, was released from his position at Brigham Young University once his stance on 9/11 conspiracies became an issue. He has not been able since to publish any of his scientific work supporting 9/11 theories in respected peer-reviewed journals, for his papers demonstrate a lack of attention to control and a leap to judgment. Ryan used his company’s email to question the import of tests done by it for NIST’s report on the Towers. The tests were far outside his area of expertise, and his misrepresentations in the letter got him fired from UL.

Jim Hoffman is a software engineer who has speculated that “hot sheets of air” caused the perimeter columns in the Towers to appear as if they were bowing. 911Mysteries and all versions of Loose Change are riddled with errors from beginning to end.

And finally, David Ray Griffin, the most consistently respected member of the 9/11 Truth Movement, is a professor of theology and philosophy of religion. He possesses the credentials not of a scientist, but a prophet. And his several books on 9/11 demonstrate this. Ryan Mackey’s methodical critique of one lengthy chapter, On “Debunking 9/11 Debunking” 2.1, shows how completely wrong Griffin is on almost every claim he made. (He got the date right.)

Indeed, the only original contribution I’m aware of Richard Gage adding to his presentation is the AIA logo, an architects’ organization in which he is a member. However, even that has been scrubbed off the site after he and others were supposed to “crash” the annual meeting of the organization. This leaves him solely with the motley crew from which he’s cobbled his presentation.

Experts....

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[granfire]

Interesting how serious this 'inside job' idea is being taken.

The farthest (furthest?) I would be willing to entertain the idea is that there might have been knowledge in the intelligence community that was largely disregarded...
(as I had the impression that throughout history there has been a series of incidences that seemed to have been allowed to happen though prior knowledge indicated an impending danger. But with hindsight being 20/20, it's hard to tell for sure)

 

[Makalakumu]

Experts....

These are real people, not strawmen. Please listen to the link on cognitive dissonance because it explains why people would rely on fallacy rather then admit that someone else might have a point that is different then your own.

 

[elder999]

Please listen to the link on cognitive dissonance because it explains why people would rely on fallacy rather then admit that someone else might have a point that is different then your own.

And, philosophically, is a valid argument for someone believing the world is flat, or that the man on the grassy knoll was George H.W. Bush, or that the universe was created by a benevolent and eternal man in the sky, who watches over and loves us all...(where's the evidence? where's the evidence?)

None of which negates that we all saw planes fly into those buildings. Any case you make has to start from there.

 

[Big Don]

None of which negates that we all saw planes fly into those buildings. Any case you make has to start from there.

QFT and to add link

 

[Archangel M]

AE911truth is ALL about the controlled demo argument....so here we go again.