masherdong
2nd Black Belt
What are the differences between these two? Are they that different?
7 Star Vs. Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis
7 Star Vs. Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis
7 Star Vs. Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis
- Thread starter masherdong
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Steel Tiger
Senior Master
The only thing I know about 7 Stars is that it was the martial art practised by the Imperial Guard during the Ching dynasty.
I do think there is a difference in footwork between the two, however.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
I've competed against Wah Lum students with a 7* mantis form (Zai Quai). What I've noticed is the Wah Lum seems to be more "flowery" than 7*. There are others here who should be better able to answer your question.
I also have competed against a bunch of Wah Lum guys in mantis divisions...much of the movement is the same although there is quite a bit more "contemporary" things added in for flair, such as butterfly kicks (wushu style). Some of the stancing is also different in terms of foot position and balance points but that may be more due to differences in specific forms rather than overall style.
OP
masherdong
2nd Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #6
Well, yes. I also want to know how different are they to learn and the difference of applications.
OP
masherdong
2nd Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #8
I dont know, are they from the same family?? I am just starting out in NPM and would like to know more info on them. Now, I do not think that there are as much politics involved here as there are in kenpo. There are many branches of kenpo and all feel that they are better than the other. I dont care about the politics, just train me to protect myself and let me get a good workout out of it.
streetwise
Yellow Belt
I have met practitioners from both systems. In application, Wah Lum tends to look more like non mantis N. Shaolin. Lots of long range stuff, some nice kick applications. The guy I was sparring was "old school" Wah Lum from P. Chan's Boston kwoon. 7 star fighters I have crossed arms with seemed much more direct, very explosive in the middle to close range, some unusual close range unbalancing moves (I stole a few of those for myself!). Just my impressions, I am not a Mantis stylist, nor do I play one on TV.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
Great analysis.
Taijiman
Orange Belt
For competitions, many Wah Lum schools modify their forms or even do straight up contemporary forms (seen them doing Yu Hai's mantis form, drunken, nan quan, etc.). I've heard they just don't want people video taping and stealing their forms, but I personaly think they do it for fun, haha 
Something else that tends to make them a bit different than other mantis schools is that there is quite a bit of southern style technique in their forms too. Heard a story once of Wah Lum and Mok Gar being popular in the same villiage in China way back when, and that being the source of that part of their art, but I'm not really certain. Also the full name of the art is something like Wah Lum Tam Tui and I think the Tam Tui part of the art results in some flashier kicking than you might see in other mantis styles.
One thing I've noticed, is that they tend to have very strong basics across the board, particularly stance work. It's unusual to have their level of quality throughout a whole organization when compared to other "chain" schools, I think And Chan Poi is very impressive for his age... heck, he'd be impressive for a young 20 something athlete too, haha.
Something else that tends to make them a bit different than other mantis schools is that there is quite a bit of southern style technique in their forms too. Heard a story once of Wah Lum and Mok Gar being popular in the same villiage in China way back when, and that being the source of that part of their art, but I'm not really certain. Also the full name of the art is something like Wah Lum Tam Tui and I think the Tam Tui part of the art results in some flashier kicking than you might see in other mantis styles.One thing I've noticed, is that they tend to have very strong basics across the board, particularly stance work. It's unusual to have their level of quality throughout a whole organization when compared to other "chain" schools, I think
And Chan Poi is very impressive for his age... heck, he'd be impressive for a young 20 something athlete too, haha.
This is an old thread I can see, and I'm not online anywhere close to what I used to be, but I've trained and currently train in 7* but we do alot of WL as well. This being because my sigung trained under several 7* teachers and also lived for years as P. Chan's head instructor at his temple way back when. So having exposure to both I find wah lum much more aerobic in its forms. It expends much more energy than 7* in my opinion. Wah lum has very low stances as compared to 7* and the fighting tends to be a bit harder to interpret from the forms. Just a few thoughts of my own about them.
7sm
7sm
I have the same Sigung and also train in both(mostly sevenstar). When I first started you had to be with my Sifu for a while before he would teach you the seven star. I think seven star is more strait to the point geared towards fighting while wah lum has a lot more flash. The WL forms can be pretty hard.
xiongnu_lohon
Yellow Belt
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my understanding is that WL is unique in that footwork is more like n. shaolin than typical mantis. In other words my impression is that WL does not use monkey-based footwork which I believe all other mantis styles do.
Other than that I would agree with anyone who says WL gets low with stances. True.
Mantismaster
Yellow Belt
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I agree with the comments from 7sm, and wah lum is still a good style, but 7-Star Mantis is designed to quickly destroy your opponent and you see it in the forms straight to the source and true to it's nature "no mercy on your prey". The 7-Star Mantis system is designed for you to commit completely into combat and only then can you be successful with your techniques. If you waist your time in flashy moves, you come up empty handed.
Mantismaster
"He who just collects forms is a paper tiger"
Mantismaster
"He who just collects forms is a paper tiger"
Hello all,
I have been a practitioner of WL for a little over a year now. I am in no means an expert but I can say that stance work is an integral part of our curriculum. It is practiced in our warm ups, our forms and every other aspect of our classes.
Now, I won't speak for 7*, as I have not had any experience in the style, however I will tell you that WL is not without fast and deadly strikes as well. Even at my level we are trained to subdue an opponent as quick and as effortlessly as possible.
While our forms may be flashy, our sparring style is surprisingly concise.
K now let me shut up before one of my older kung fu brothers come in here and beats my *** for saying something that's not correct :lookie:
I have been a practitioner of WL for a little over a year now. I am in no means an expert but I can say that stance work is an integral part of our curriculum. It is practiced in our warm ups, our forms and every other aspect of our classes.
Now, I won't speak for 7*, as I have not had any experience in the style, however I will tell you that WL is not without fast and deadly strikes as well. Even at my level we are trained to subdue an opponent as quick and as effortlessly as possible.
While our forms may be flashy, our sparring style is surprisingly concise.
K now let me shut up before one of my older kung fu brothers come in here and beats my *** for saying something that's not correct :lookie:
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Hello all! Please exhibit patience here.I just recently visited
GM Chan Pui's Wah lum temple in Orlando Florida.I was extremely impressed with everything that I saw there.The students were spot on perfect,very disciplined and organized.The moves were very forceful, yet smooth and relaxed as they transitioned from one movement to another.I wondered,how effective is the art in a real street combat situation?All replies of enlightenment welcome.Respectfully Qwk61
GM Chan Pui's Wah lum temple in Orlando Florida.I was extremely impressed with everything that I saw there.The students were spot on perfect,very disciplined and organized.The moves were very forceful, yet smooth and relaxed as they transitioned from one movement to another.I wondered,how effective is the art in a real street combat situation?All replies of enlightenment welcome.Respectfully Qwk61
Hello Qwk61,
Did you do the live in program in Orlando or did you just stop by? I was curious to how it was down there. As far as how effective the art is, that would depend on the person themselves. While you may excel in your forms, you have to break those down and incorporate them in your self defense/ sparring. What I mean is that you wont be going into a street fight and say well.. I'll just use my form Little Mantis to defeat this opponent. As forms are just an expression of a preset fighting pattern.
Did you do the live in program in Orlando or did you just stop by? I was curious to how it was down there. As far as how effective the art is, that would depend on the person themselves. While you may excel in your forms, you have to break those down and incorporate them in your self defense/ sparring. What I mean is that you wont be going into a street fight and say well.. I'll just use my form Little Mantis to defeat this opponent. As forms are just an expression of a preset fighting pattern.
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Howdy, I just stopped in with a friend of mine.I have a solid background in the Wing Tsun discipline,I have pretty much given up on the notion of training this fellow so I shut the door of Wing Tsun,he did not commit.He is fully aware that with Wah Lum that he will have to train hard,also the fact that if he were to pay for lessons he might have a greater sense of appreciation.I was basically teaching him for free just to get him going,he got a lot of material, he just didn't apply himself.
So that's when the discussion about the Wah Lum surfaced,I knew some of the students from the Merritt Island group years ago,again this will be no picnic for you is what I told him.He was impressed,and so was I.Yes it does depend on the individual and how he/her applies he/herself.By the way I love the Temple and all the pleasant people.:asian:
So that's when the discussion about the Wah Lum surfaced,I knew some of the students from the Merritt Island group years ago,again this will be no picnic for you is what I told him.He was impressed,and so was I.Yes it does depend on the individual and how he/her applies he/herself.By the way I love the Temple and all the pleasant people.:asian:
Thanks to all for this insight. One of my best friends is Dr. John Cheng, whose teacher is Ray mond Fogg who trained both 7 star and wah lum. I have seen both and the argument seems to be similar to the discussion between the Ng Wei/Leung Shum branch and Lau branch of Ying jow eagle claw. I have also trained under Jeff Bolt, senior to Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, and there is an interesting discussion since, in my opinion, Preying Mantis, Ying Jow Eagle Claw, and White crane are the three most proficient systems in chin na, especially in the Northern styles. Southern crane is also very interesting. Had a difficult time learning it after Northern Eagle, Northern Nine Birds Shaolin, and Yang tai chi. As you can see, I love birds...LOL!!! Being small, I especially love the chin na aspects and ripping of them. Can any of you comment on your experiences with either 7 star or wah lum locking techniques, especially how you use the monkey footwork or 7 step to set up the beautiful and effective mantis locks, especially after bridging from the forearms? I would love to compare that to what we were taught the last 30 years in eagle claw and white crane?
Thank you very much!
Thank you very much!
