2000 and counting...

[Tkang_TKD]

Ok, some of my questions are answered by your your profile. Retired LAPD, USMC '59-'63.

Not sure about this, but did you get out of the Corps at the early onset of the Vietnam War?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Bob,

How do you reconcile the Newsmax's electricity output claims with that of the Government Accounting Office and the other links I provided?


Regards,


Steve

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Steve,
Time frames.

Bob

 

[GAB]

Hi Tomas,

Yes, I went into the USMC at a ripe age of 17, parents signed only after I begged them and said give me your blessing or I will join when I am 18 and there will be hard feelings etc. They were grief stricken.

I joined the Marine Corps because at the time I felt I would be drafted in my later years, I felt I would go in get out, use GI benifits and go on with my life I did so and it paid off.

I was young, was lucky, saw the world (sea going 2 years) in a rubber raft off the coast of cuba, and back to Pendelton. Got out in 1963. I married in June of 63, I got out in August and went back to civilian life. (much smarter, wiser and well traveled). Still married 41 years.

I spent the Vietnam years fighting in the Streets of L.A.

I just believe it is (conscription) better then what is happening to the youth of today, we have lost a lot more of our young to drugs, gang wars and other various criminal activities, get them at an early age in the service and head um down the right road.

Loyalty and serving your country is not much to pay for freedom. Death is not a biggie for the one who dies, it is for the rest who have got to go on.

Regards, Gary

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Steve,
Time frames.

Bob

Fair enough...here's the time frame.

The Newsmax article and the spurious letter from Lt. Col. Scot Seitz you provided were both based upon figures used in a Forbes magazine article by Caspar Weinberger* dated 8 Dec. of 2003 and a briefing by Paul Bremer of 9 October of 2003.

The Government Accounting Office report I provided was from early this summer...2004.



Here's an article from THIS week:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5898089/

A snippet:

"People are now basically drinking raw sewage anywhere downstream from Baghdad, which is much of the population," said William Fellows, a senior program officer for UNICEF who also works with the United Nations Development Program.


*Bechtel, Inc. was awarded the contract for reconstruction. Weinberger was a vice president and legal counsel for Bechtel in the eighties.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Bechtel


Regards,



Steve

 

[loki09789]

Even during the First Gulf War, I remember the 'college mentallity' that came from students that barely understood the actual war or political situation. I don't know exactly why (other than a well intentioned motive of "war sucks" which I can agree with) but it regularly translated to a criticism and bashing of troops and service in general (similar to the tone of Vietnam protest in some cases).

My one Buddy (Medic with a Mechanized Infantry company) was back on leave and we were all out at a local bar when he was trying to talk up this college aged girl who made the mistake of tactlessly saying that she didn't think it was all that bad over there and that "you guys didn't really have to do anything but lay around and get sun tans"...

Well, he had a few in him already and proceeded to give her graphic details of crawling into Iraqi tanks to offer medical treatment to enemy troops (per Laws of land warfare) and shared the gruesome images that he saw as well as the first hand contact in the course of humanitarian services (medical and such)...

He wasn't anymore tactful than she was, but at least he was speaking from experience.

I think it is the developmental age and environment of college that creates a 'know it' attitude (we all get it at different times). But as my Dad use to tell me "Fine move out and do it on your own before you realize that you DON'T know everything.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Interesting.
Someone out there is lying. I'm not sure who.

Heres my latest info on the situation:

September 15, 2004: The U.S. is going to shift several billion dollars in reconstruction money to building up security forces in the Sunni Arab areas of central Iraq. While reconstruction efforts move ahead in the Kurdish north and the Shia Arab south, the continued violence by Baath Party supporters and al Qaeda supporters in central Iraq has delayed many reconstruction projects in Sunni Arab communities. The Sunni Arabs, who were favored during the long reign of Saddam Hussein (a Sunni Arab himself), are angry at losing power, and even more dismayed as they note the growing prosperity, and peace, among the Kurds and Shia they long ruled. Although a minority in the country (about 20 percent of the population), the Sunni Arab tribes control most of central and western Iraq. The way the media covers the Sunni Arab violence, you get the impression that the entire country is in flames. But in most of Iraq, American civil affairs teams, and civilian aid workers report no violence or unrest at all. That, however is not news. Sunni Arab terrorists are news, and it's mostly Sunni Arabs who are being called on to fight the violence. Despite the attacks on local police (who are recruited locally) and civilians who support the government, resistance to "the resistance" is everywhere. Most Iraqis don't want the 20th century tyranny of Saddam, or the 14th century lifestyle of al Qaeda.

Now, I've seen alot of conflicting information.


old report from Fox : http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92778,00.html

A recent report : http://wwww.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/c7ca8360c1034ffd49256f0a00225e47?OpenDocument

Better and Worse: http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0319/p01s03-woiq.html

DOD Info : http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/mar2004/tni-1yr0318042.html

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Interesting.
Someone out there is lying. I'm not sure who.

I tend to trust the gadfly in such instances, particularly when its a separate government agency.


Here's an article on the GAO report and the now defunct Coalition Provisional Authority's Inspector General Report, which also listed problems:

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0604/063004kp1.htm


Here's the CPA Inspector General's site...I can't get the reports to punch up:

http://www.cpa-ig.com/reports_congress.html



Regards,


Steve

 

[rmcrobertson]

Personally, every time I see these rows of bright, chirrupy "statistics," coming out from governments that have been caught with their hand in the body bag, I think of either the bright, chirrupy body counts that came out of Vietnam, Nixon announcing that the FBI had gone through 1,257, 342 pages of documents and interviewed over 6, 247 witnesses and there was no evidence of White House involvement in Watergate, or--my fave--some SF novel I read in which the hero hears the government radio announce, "That's just 10--TEN!!--ration points for a BIG, BIG, half-ounce bar of CHOCOLATE!!!"

Over a thousand US soldiers dead. How many wounded, how many crippled permanently? How many dead Iraqui kids, women, young men? How much did we spend, are we spending? How many houses, schools, mosques destroyed? How many new enemies?

I'm afraid I tend to think it's worth a lot just to have gotten rid of Uday and Qusay...but to paraphrase Tom Clancy, "You want this man killed, we can do that, but I'm not going to help you kill 100,000 others."

You think that's nasty? Try this, also from "The Sum of All Fears," page 897 in the paperback edition: "You're the one who ****ed up! You're the one who took us to the edge, and now the real reason you want to slaughter a whole city is because you're mad, your pride is hurt, and you want to get even! You want to show them that nobody can push YOU around! That's the reason, ISN'T IT?"

Might be nice if conservatives would, at least sometimes, pay attention to their own ideological statements.

 

[kenpo tiger]

This all makes me incredibly sad.

As a mother, for the mothers who've lost their children.

As an American, for the mistakes made in our collective name.

Conscription isn't the answer. As someone else pointed out, serving in the military is now a choice people make and is viewed by some as their duty. (I'll also add that even when the draft was in place, it was STILL a choice some made to enlist.) Maybe a system similar to that of the Israeli army - you go to training at 16 and then serve in some capacity, such as serving on the police force [in Israel it's a branch of the military.]

As a mother of sons, I breathe a sigh of relief that the draft no longer exists. I support our troops, but to our government: don't take mine if you won't send yours.

 

[Tgace]

The US Army War College has an interesting paper regarding the new trends regarding war casualties and "acceptable losses".

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/96summer/eiken.htm

 

[GAB]

Kenpo Tiger,

Yes it is sad, the idea is just not male but female also.

Remember all who go in the service are not on the front line, it takes alot more in the rear to take care of the fighting force.

There could be some rules set up that would help to determine who would fight. We would still want someone who can do the job out there doing it.

I still think you can not allow fear to be the factor for not going in and serving ones country.

You have nothing to fear, but fear itself. Turns people into victims and other things to bad to mention.

Regards, Gary

 

[kenpo tiger]

I agree with Peach in that there should be more aggressive recruiting for the 'peaceful' endeavors - like making sure there are enough qualified teachers to go around, education supplies, food for those in low income areas, many many more counselors for street gangs so that those who participate in them can lead a different, less violent life. Also more participation in programs like Habitat for Humanity. Another aspect of this same idea would be to aggressively recruit for the Peace Corps - if it still exists - or other programs which have outreach in Third World countries.

Participation in these types of positive, humanitarian programs would go an awfully long way, in my opinion, toward the cessation of hostilities toward the US. It probably would never eradicate the hatred of some toward our country, but maybe, just maybe, it could change the minds and hearts of enough people to make a difference.

I sound like a tree-hugging liberal, don't I? Well, I'm a child of the 60s and 70s and I still believe in peace, love, and understanding. Maybe I'm unrealistic, but I'd like to believe that there's still hope for us all.

 

[GAB]

Hi Kenpo Tiger,

I guess we can all pray for peace, kindness, charity, good programs for the reaching out of the havers to the have nots. Sometimes that works and sometimes it only makes the have-nots resentful for your concerns.

The idea I am going on, is very old and wise, to avoid war, you must prepare for it. I think it goes back to the Articles of Amendment #1 and #2 . They were the most important then and now.

What is a better way then having the citizens of the country being involved and taking on the responsibility for the protection of the freedom, they have come to expect, unless they are involved, will someday possibility lose it.

I look at it like the right to vote, the powers to be should take some active steps to try and get more of our citizens out to vote, look at the last election, if we have another situation like that it could lead to drastic results, in a country that is very proud of our right to vote policy.

In most other countries it would have been much more violent. I am not sure if you let it go, then you let the idea of the war, we are in go, and then what is next?

We have already seen a couple of things that send shivers up and down your spine as far as abuse of power.

If the President is voted out, and people vote in a different Senate and House, he may be up for grabs, for many crimes that quite a few persons have been talking about of late...

This election is very important, regarding American's values. It will be a message sent loud and clear, one way or the other.
Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

I raised the issue of the draft here, so let me just mention my point--if this war or terror is really the Big Emergency (19 guys with box cutters?), then the Prez has the responsibility to get serious: declare war, call up troops, and go after 'em. To my mind, even if Bush is right (and I don't think he is), he's taken a lazy, irresponsible, politician's approach to the matter.

Then there's this--ya know, we have been piling up armies and weapons since forever. This country is clearly the strongest on earth, with weapons out the old kazoo--and where's it getting us? None of it so much as slows down wars, none of it brings security--so, maybe, it's about damn time to start trying something else.

Like, for example, real support for the UN, and real international aid, and real honoring of the principles Americans are supposed to honor--for starters, we could quit futzing around with democratically-elected governments that we don't happen to approve of. We could quit training terrorists and drug lords, as we've done throughout Latin America.

 

[Phoenix44]

As a mother of sons, I breathe a sigh of relief that the draft no longer exists. I support our troops, but to our government: don't take mine if you won't send yours.

The draft is coming, KT. There are twin bills in Congressional committee RIGHT NOW which, if passed, would re-institute the draft. Look them up: S.89 and H.R.163. And by the way, it won't involve just your sons, but your daughters, too.

Will everybody please just WAKE UP!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

...and being enrolled in high school or college will not "protect" them, according to those bills, either. Kids will be pulled out of high school and college for the draft.

These are my friends. These are my students. They are others' children.

 

[Ronald R. Harbers]

Should'nt the title of this post be "3500 and counting..."

 

[bignick]

i think...unfortunately...that it will get there soon enough, without adding in any other casualties to the iraq number

 

[Ronald R. Harbers]

I meant the 2500 killed September 11, 2001.:angry: