2000 and counting...

[Tgace]

We apparently are in the "expect miracles overnight" generation. How long of a timeframe should we be looking at in a time spent/reconstruction completed aspect?

 

[rmcrobertson]

My objection isn't that things aren't getting done with a flick of the remote.

My objections are that the guys who got us into Iraq, on very flaky grounds, with an ill-defined mission, apparently in order to nation-build, are also the guys:

...who endlessly bitched about Clinton getting us into Somalia and Bosnia, on the grounds that we hadn't defined our mission and we shouldn't be nation-building.


...who lied about our data and our evaluations of data, after years of attacking Clinton because he lied about sex.


...who hacked away at the military, cutting budgets and pushing more and more fancy technology, then got us into Iraq with inadequate troops, poor long-term planning, and a considerable shortage of basic necessities like armor.


...who endlessly impugn other people's patriotism and lack of support for the military, but who ducked out on military service themselves.

...who themselves seem to think that everything can be done with a flick of a wand, and who haven't got the guts to tell the country that if they're serious about the, "War on terror," we need to declare war, raise taxes to pay for it, probably re-institute the draft, and get with the program.

 

[GAB]

Hi

If you consider the numbers (dead,our side) it is very small considering the amount of money spent to get rid of the old and try the new weapons out on our enemies. Money made by the various companies, and the lack of support by other major powers.

We will see in the next election just how devoted we are to this, (war) it has been pretty deceitful. We are in the middle of it, we need to change the direction.

We do need a draft 2 yrs mandatory, sorry, but that is the truth, men and women.

Right now, it is hard to see the truth, because it is so close to election time, what is true and what is politics.

I just finished a book by Michael Moore, title is, Dude, Where's my Country.
Interesting to say the least.

Regards, Gary

 

[Flatlander]

We do need a draft 2 yrs mandatory, sorry, but that is the truth, men and women.

What makes this the 'truth', Gary? I think that you might find you are one of a very few who holds this opinion.....

 

[Tgace]

Alright. Should we just pull out and leave them to their own designs at this point?

 

[rmcrobertson]

All right. Should we just commit ourselves to doing this same stupid crap over and over at this point?

Well, why not? Our government can't even bring itself to admit that past administrations, Republican and Democratic alike, have sown the whirlwind.

 

[Tkang_TKD]

We do need a draft 2 yrs mandatory, sorry, but that is the truth, men and women.

I would beg to differ. In the 15 years I have been in, I've seen tons of drawbacks, base-closures, military spending cutbacks etc... under both Democrats and Republicans.

We don't need a draft per se, we need to quit living under the misguided assumption that we can make do with what we have with our ever changing mission. We need to quit sending good soldiers, sailors, and airmen back home with their walking papers while we up the tempo of our operations.

Even with all that our military is doing right now, can you believe we are looking at cutting about 70,000 sailors between now and 2011?

The reservists and national guardsmen are getting called to to active duty not to agument our numbers, but instead to replace those we've decided we didn't need.

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

We do need a draft 2 yrs mandatory, sorry, but that is the truth, men and women.

I know that many countries, for example Switzerland make it mandatory that every male serves in some form of the military in their life. do i think that'd work for us? no. unfortunately not every person is made to be a soldier and not every person is mentally or physically equiped to be put into such situations, like that of war. you also can't force someone to join the military and expect them to put all their effort into it. you get people that don't support the cause and sabotage things, giving out information, or just plain out not caring, and in a war situation i would think that the person you want there to cover your butt when needed that you want to know that they're there cause they believe in the "cause" or at least that they chose to be there and they're not being forced to be there. i know i'd feel better knowing that. :idunno:
and i must agree with Tkang_TKD that there are already many cutbacks within the military today. when i was growing up we moved around alot, well heck i'm still growing up but i lived on military bases practically my entire childhood and a lot of those bases are now closed. and those are bases both in the states and internationally have been closed because there are just not the fundings to keep them open. there is also a lot less people on those bases which makes them hard to run.

 

[Chronuss]

We impeached President Clinton over far less lies, but yet we give the current administration a free pass. I guess it's ok to start wars and kill people as long as nobody gets a blowjob.

...I truly don't think GW can spell impeach...

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Bob is right, power is up over pre-war levels, problem is it isnt enough. This LA Times story explains how expansion and more demands on the grid have been a problem.

TGace,

Here is the recent GAO report that outlines the problem. It says "As of late May 2004, average daily electrical service since the immediate postwar period had not signicantly improved in the country as a whole and was worse in some areas."

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04902r.pdf

Another article that looks at the problem from the Iraqi point of view and suggests that things are really not all that rosey:

http://www.baghdadbulletin.com/pageArticle.php?article_id=18&cat_id=7


The letter you referenced that is attributed to Scot Seitz is dealt with at Snopes.com:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp

The article has been sent across the internet time and again and attributed to several authors.

The points in the letter are answered by an Iraqi citizen:

http://vitw.us/weblog/archives/000485.html#more

In lieu of referencing an e-mail, here is an article published by the Council on Foreign Relations:

The economic revival of Iraq has been stunted by several American failures that should be addressed quickly. The first is the failure to provide security for the Iraqi people, which makes the ordinary flow of goods and personnel across the country difficult, raises production costs, and cripples investment. The second is the failure to provide basic services. Here the Coalition has done much better than it has on security, but it still has not corrected shortages of electricity, clean water, and gasoline, to name only the most pressing.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040...dam-assessing-the-reconstruction-of-iraq.html




Bottom line, folks...does it matter what WE think? Or does it matter what the discontent and unemployed Iraqi thinks? I'm talking about the one who stews and talks with his equally discontented and unemployed friends.

We aren't killing Americans...they are. We don't seem to be winning their hearts and minds.


Regards,


Steve

 

[GAB]

Hi Flatlander.

Yes, you are correct, I should have said, IMO I feel this is a true solution to the situation that we have gotten ourselves into because of bad decisions in the past and present.

The persons being in the military would be there for a limited time and would always be freshly trained and ready for action, Better weight control better training, not just hanging on.

If they don't submit to the idea that we need this for the sake of our country, then we need to hire more jailers and find an Island to put the lackeys on.

They can be there for the duration of the time they should be in, helping their country. If they don't want to be a part of the country then they should not, they should be second class citizens, every abled body should help. No free lunch for freedom.

When they get out, or stay in if they qualify, they will feel they have had a part of protecting their country and feel good about themselves.

Is that better? Regards, Gary

 

[Flatlander]

No free lunch for freedom.

I think that freedom means the freedom to choose a peaceful life.

There is a thread on conscription here, should anyone want to further explore the topic.

 

[GAB]

Hi Flatlander,

I agree, a peaceful life is nice, I have had one for a few years now, it is still not peacful.
For alot of people that is the reason they are into martial arts. I went into them, as a way of life, to protect my keester.
We have more terroist's on the streets of your local cities, causing harm to the citizens, killing, robbing, burglarizing, raping, shooting, and maiming, everyday in the USA then what is happening in the country of Iraq.

Just read the local papers and then read the news on the net.

Pretty bad, for what we would call a civilized country.

Thanks for the conscription link. Are we to think that the Democrats, aren't playing the military card this time, how about the Republicans against Clinton.

It is getting and has been a very sad state of affairs regarding the way we take this thing we call freedom for granted.

When they played the military card both of the military men failed to make it into the office. The ones that had fuzzy backgrounds did though. That say's something for the way we are thinking as a country.

About 30 to 35 % of the country votes, 15 to 18 % vote in the new candidate, neat huh?
Regards, Gary

 

[Tkang_TKD]

No free lunch for freedom.

This is a cost I will gladly bear.

 

[Tkang_TKD]

The persons being in the military would be there for a limited time and would always be freshly trained and ready for action, Better weight control better training, not just hanging on.

Contrary to belief, we train all the time, and as technology evolves, we evolve with it.

They can be there for the duration of the time they should be in, helping their country. If they don't want to be a part of the country then they should not, they should be second class citizens, every abled body should help. No free lunch for freedom.

So, how many years have you served, or how many are you enlisting or accepting a commission for? If you haven't served, should I regard you as beneath me because I made a concientious choice to serve 15 years ago?

 

[PeachMonkey]

We have more terroist's on the streets of your local cities, causing harm to the citizens, killing, robbing, burglarizing, raping, shooting, and maiming, everyday in the USA then what is happening in the country of Iraq.

Are you *really* convinced that more violence is taking place on the streets of the United States than in the towns and cities of Iraq? Can you give some statistics or facts to support this point of view?

Why is participation in the military your particular choice of acts that shows that someone "deserves freedom"? Why isn't it feeding the poor, trying to foster peace, or something like that?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, I've got stats on that somewhere....

1 set:

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Buff_070703,00.html
But we as a nation, and our coalition partners, need a sense of proportion, now more than ever. Twelve KIAs a month, the death toll in the first two months of the Battle of Saddam's Return, is about 150 troops killed per year. With about 150,000 U.S. armed forces deployed in Iraq at present, that's an annual death rate of a tenth of a percent: one person in a thousand.

Department of Transportation highway safety statistics indicate a roughly equivalent annual level of mortality among avid motorcyclists. That's right. If those 150,000 troops all came home and were discharged and became bikers instead, they'd die at about the same rate. This is not to criticize bikers or motorcycle manufacturers -- it's just to establish perspective. Each of us, as we age, will face increasing exposure to mortality, eventually far exceeding one in a thousand annually.

And at the rate of about 150 troops killed per year, in a hypothetical ongoing "quagmire" in Iraq of that intensity, it would take a full two decades to equal the 3,000 people killed in one day on 9/11/01. Think about that. War is indeed a risky business, but freedom truly doesn't come for free.

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A267_0_2_0_C/
The Federalist, a conservative Internet news service, claims that the streets of Baghdad, Iraq, are safer than those of Washington, D.C.

http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/009269.html
Baghdad has lower murder rate than New York City, Chicago, L.A., or D.C.

According to the Army, there were 92 murders in Baghdad, a city of 5 million people, in July. The number dropped to 75 in August, 54 in September and 24 in October.

In New York, a city of 8 million people, there were 52 murders in July, 51 in August, 52 in September and 45 in October.

John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute, who recently published an extensive analysis on Iraqi crime figures, says the numbers indicate that Baghdad's murder rate dropped from 19.5 per 100,000 people in July to a rate of five killings per 100,000 people in October.

By contrast, New York's murder rate is seven murders per 100,000 people, Los Angeles' murder rate is 17 per 100,000, and Chicago's is 22, Lott said, citing FBI crime statistics.

And before anyone asks...no, I aint going. I don't care to visit any of those cities....I'm looking for somethign rural, away from civilization. Just me, a mansion and a T3.

To add to the above:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/6/28/214849.shtml
Statistics on Progress Made in Iraq
NewsMax Wires
Tuesday, June 29, 2004
A look at progress in Iraq reported by the Bush administration:

- Electricity production has reached 4,100 megawatts, short of the coalition's goal of 6,000 megawatts by June 30. Estimates of Iraq's prewar production have varied wildly - from 300 megawatts to 4,400 megawatts.

- Electricity is now spread evenly across the country. Baghdad, which used to be favored under Saddam Hussein's regime, now gets 8-12 hours of electricity a day compared to 20 hours before the war.
- The overall number of telephones in Iraq, including cell phones, is up nearly 46 percent since before the war. Cellular phone usage has soared with more than 429,300 subscribers nationwide. More than 201,000 subscribers have had their land telephone lines reinstated, but there are still only 784,200 land lines, compared to 833,000 before the war.

- More than 2,200 schools and 240 hospitals have been "rehabilitated," the coalition said - though the amount of work performed has varied.

- As of January 2004, 860 secondary school master trainers, and 31,772 secondary teachers and administrative staff, were trained in programs funded by the U.S. Agency for International Development.

- School supply kits have been distributed to 1.5 million secondary school students, 808,000 primary school students and 81,735 primary school teachers.

- About 8.7 million new math and science textbooks have been distributed. The World Bank has issued a grant for $40 million for new textbooks for 6 million primary and secondary students.

- Twenty Iraqis have received Fulbright grants to study abroad, and six are women.

- More than 77,000 public works jobs have been created through the National Employment Program.

- Sixteen provincial councils have been established, along with 78 district councils, 192 city or sub-district councils, and 392 neighborhood councils.

- Health-care spending in Iraq has increased some 30 times over prewar levels. Between June 2003 and April 2004, more than 3 million children under five were vaccinated against diseases. A U.S. grant to the Iraqi Nursing Association will go toward training more nurses and buying uniforms, bed linens and nurses' kits.

- The new Iraqi dinar has been stable, and its value has risen by 25 percent over last fall, when the conversion was under way.

Aside: http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Iraq_Coalition_Casualty_Statistics/Soldier_Suicides
Lots of info on various casulties.

 

[Chronuss]

And before anyone asks...no, I aint going. I don't care to visit any of those cities....I'm looking for somethign rural, away from civilization. Just me, a mansion and a T3.

when you do get that T3...do let us lowly peons know so we can have a massive LAN party...hell, I'll supply beer and pizza.

 

[GAB]

Hi Tommy,

I have an opinion I stated it, now you want to attack me personally.

I served, my family on both sides have been in America since the early 1700's, fought in every war, my Dad was born on property that his grandad got for fighting in the war of 1812.

I have several of my relative's that are stats and victims of the wars. I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps. Way before you were born.

I served in the streets of Los Angeles and am retired from there.

So big deal, it is not about me and you as a personal contest, it is about an opinion that everyone has a right to.

Take Care, Regards, Gary

 

[Tkang_TKD]

Hi Tommy,

I have an opinion I stated it, now you want to attack me personally.

How have I attacked you? By asking if I should see you as below me? I think that's a legitimate question. By asking of your personal military background it gives me the ability to ascertain where your opinion is derived.

I served, my family on both sides have been in America since the early 1700's, fought in every war, my Dad was born on property that his grandad got for fighting in the war of 1812.

I have several of my relative's that are stats and victims of the wars. I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps. Way before you were born.

Ok. You served 4 years. That is the question I posed. Family history is kind of irrelevant to that. I never brought family history into it, but thank you for sharing. We have a strong military history that runs in both our families.

I was born in 1970, so I'm guessing you served sometime in Vietnam? or was would it have been Korea, or WWII? If it was Vietnam, were you drafted or were you a volunteer? The reason I ask, is that it would shed some light on me as to why you support conscription.

I served in the streets of Los Angeles and am retired from there.

Retired Police Officer by chance?

So big deal, it is not about me and you as a personal contest, it is about an opinion that everyone has a right to.

Take Care, Regards, Gary

I didn't see it as a personal contest, merely a difference of opinion on whether or not conscription is a good idea, or what constitutes a second class citizen. Please do not take a difference of opinion as an attack, or my voicing of mine be regarded as hindering you. I'm glad to hear your opinions, and If I agree or disagree, I can't take them away from you, nor would I want to.