2 years of hard training to get yellow belt, my grandson gets belt in 6 weeks?

[Bruce7]

American schools seem to be increasingly moving towards the Korean model of a TKD 1st dan black belt meaning, basically, "you've got a handle on the basic stuff". In Korea, you usually get your black belt after 1-2 years, and then there's lots more training you do after that, to actually get good. In the US, it's still typically more like 2-5 years. Some people quit after that, but others will stick with it for a long time. (I think a good question to ask is whether the school has a dedicated black belt curriculum & classes, and whether many students continue after they earn their first black belt.)

Thank you, that explains a lot.

 

[skribs]

When my Dad and I started Taekwondo, our goal was to get our black belt. We didn't the first time around, so we wanted to see it through. We saw a lot of people get their black belt and quit, and read about a lot of McDojos which basically guarantee a black belt. So we came to the conclusion that the 1st degree black belt didn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. That's not to say a black belt isn't an accomplishment, or that we should disrespect them. Just that there was a clear jump from 1st to 2nd dan.

So my Dad and I both came to the conclusion that a 2nd degree black belt would mean a lot more. It shows you didn't just get your black belt and quit, that you kept going. And we made that our goal. So while we had the black belt and all the oohs and ahhs that go with that, we also had our next goal to strive towards.

 

[Buka]

That is very interesting. The Koreans are driving the fast progression. I had thought it was the Americans trying to get more money for belts. I am glad I was wrong, way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?

The Korean invasion started in the early seventies. Hasn't slowed down any since. The fast progression?
$$$$.

 

[dvcochran]

The normal font and everything on this site works just fine. If you don't edit your font, it will be normal.

@Bruce7 said he has a virus. Maybe he is was flying high on a fever!

 

[skribs]

@Bruce7 said he has a virus. Maybe he is was flying high on a fever!

He said he was new. I was just trying to be helpful!

 

[Tames D]

In 1973 I train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from one of Jack Hwang schools. I was an athlete and train hard for over 2 years to get a yellow belt.

Damn belt factories...

 

[Earl Weiss]

The focus should be on what the student is learning and how they are performing as opposed to the color of the belt.

 

[mrt2]

When my Dad and I started Taekwondo, our goal was to get our black belt. We didn't the first time around, so we wanted to see it through. We saw a lot of people get their black belt and quit, and read about a lot of McDojos which basically guarantee a black belt. So we came to the conclusion that the 1st degree black belt didn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. That's not to say a black belt isn't an accomplishment, or that we should disrespect them. Just that there was a clear jump from 1st to 2nd dan.

So my Dad and I both came to the conclusion that a 2nd degree black belt would mean a lot more. It shows you didn't just get your black belt and quit, that you kept going. And we made that our goal. So while we had the black belt and all the oohs and ahhs that go with that, we also had our next goal to strive towards.

I trained in Tang Soo Do from 1979 to 1982. The minimum time to get to black belt was 3 years, though as I found out, it was not an automatic thing and in practice, many people too 4 to 5 years to get to black belt, or like me, dropped out before getting to that point. In those days, and in TSD, black belts were relatively rare. Often, as a high red or Cho Dan Bo, I was the highest ranking student in the class.

These days and in my current school, the black belt is not as unusual a site as it was back in the day. There are classes where there are more total black belts than all other colored belts combined. On the other hand, 2nd Dans are not as common a site. The skill level to get from 1st to 2nd Dan is large, maybe as large as from white belt to 1st Dan. And it takes a minimum 4, and as many as 5 years to get to 2nd Dan. Thus, my view that in my current school, 2nd Dan is basically about what 1st Dan was at my former school back in the day.

 

[skribs]

These days and in my current school, the black belt is not as unusual a site as it was back in the day. There are classes where there are more total black belts than all other colored belts combined. On the other hand, 2nd Dans are not as common a site. The skill level to get from 1st to 2nd Dan is large, maybe as large as from white belt to 1st Dan. And it takes a minimum 4, and as many as 5 years to get to 2nd Dan. Thus, my view that in my current school, 2nd Dan is basically about what 1st Dan was at my former school back in the day.

Well, that happens at my school, but mainly because we have classes specifically for black belts!

 

[skribs]

One thing that does happen at my school is there is a curve in the progression time.

• White -> Yellow, Yellow -> Purple, Purple -> Orange, and Orange -> Green (the first 4 tests) are all one test each. And for the kids, the white -> yellow test is incredibly simple. They just need to know 5 blocks, 3 punches, 4 kicks...and that's about it. The test for yellow is less about the technique, and more about "can you stand still when you're supposed to, follow the directions when they're given, and have a respectful attitude."
• Once you get to Green and Blue belts, there's stripes. So you go Green -> Green 1 -> Blue. Once you're there, you go Blue -> Blue 1 -> Blue 2 -> Red. So it takes 2 tests to get your Blue belt and 3 to get your Red belt. So you could potentially go up a color every 2 months in the beginner, it's 4 months minimum for blue and 6 months minimum for Red.
• Once you're a Red belt, in addition to having 2 stripes, there's a 4 month minimum on each test. That forces you to slow down a bit and sharpen your technique before black belt. We only do black belts twice a year (instead of every 2 months), so you have to wait anywhere from 4-8 months minimum to get your black belt, depending on when you got your Red 2. So it's 12-16 months minimum to go from Red to Black.
• After black belt, we have ranks between the degrees, but the time limit is imposed on the degrees. 1 year to go from 1st to 2nd, 2 years to go from 2nd to 3rd. These are minimums, of course.

So it may take 2 months to get Yellow and another 2 months to get purple. It's a minimum of 2.5 years to get Black Belt, and that's if you tested every time and were at the right time of year to do Black Belt testing. In practice, most people add an extra 2-4 months for each test. Just 2 months on each test stretches it from 2.5 to 4.5 years right there.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Bottom line:
Rank doesn't really have any meaning except within the school or system that issued it.
I think there's generally too much focus on rank. I've also noticed that the higher your own rank, the less likely you are to care about rank.

 

[andyjeffries]

That is very interesting. The Koreans are driving the fast progression. I had thought it was the Americans trying to get more money for belts. I am glad I was wrong, way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?

I don't think they have changed to this fast progression, it's been that way for YEARS. However, remember this is nothing new for martial arts. From documented history - Shiro Saigo moved to Tokyo in 1882 and in August he joined Jigoro Kano's dojo. In 1883 he became the first black belt (along with another). So that's a max of 16 months. Also Gichin Funakoshi promoted students to 1st Dan within 18 months (and they are documented as educated working professionals, so certainly weren't doing 8 hours per day).

Remember, the asian mindset in most martial arts is generally that 1st Dan is a beginner rank, it's expected that you aren't really very good until 4th Dan. So they certainly don't think much of a 1st belt test. It's a minor speed bump, not a big deal. Don't get me wrong, your grandson is justified in feeling proud of his achievement, but it certainly shouldn't have ever taken 2 years, unless you were training once per month! IMHO.

 

[mrt2]

In 1973 I train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from one of Jack Hwang schools. I was an athlete and train hard for over 2 years to get a yellow belt. I had to learn how to walk a form perfectly before I was taught blocks and punches. I stopped training in Martial Arts around 1985.

I trained in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from 1979 to 1982. The intervals between belt promotions were 3 months, starting with white belt. I do remember spending at least a month working on stances and basic blocks before throwing my first punch, then learning punches and my first form in the second month. Probably didn't throw a kick until my third month.

Never the less, I still tested for green belt at 6 months, and red belt at 15 months. I was a red belt for another year, and made Cho Dan Bo, at somewhere between 24 and 26 months.

So even back in the day, from a traditional Korean instructor as part of the same organization you were part of, people weren't kept at low belts for years. I suspect the reason is, you train for years for one or two belt promotions, a lot of people would get bored and quit. You have to get into the curriculum at some point, hopefully sometime within the first year of training.

 

[Bruce7]

Thinking back on our school it was probably not the norm. Belt test were given when Jack Hwang was in town and that was not often. One of our yellow belts was never around when belt test were given. I think he had 5 years of experience not sure and was still a yellow belt. He told me he went to a tournament and they told him he need to take a belt test to compete in the tournament. They were nice enough to test him so he could compete. He still wore his yellow belt in class.

 

[Bruce7]

I trained in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from 1979 to 1982. The intervals between belt promotions were 3 months, starting with white belt. I do remember spending at least a month working on stances and basic blocks before throwing my first punch, then learning punches and my first form in the second month. Probably didn't throw a kick until my third month.

Never the less, I still tested for green belt at 6 months, and red belt at 15 months. I was a red belt for another year, and made Cho Dan Bo, at somewhere between 24 and 26 months.

So even back in the day, from a traditional Korean instructor as part of the same organization you were part of, people weren't kept at low belts for years. I suspect the reason is, you train for years for one or two belt promotions, a lot of people would get bored and quit. You have to get into the curriculum at some point, hopefully sometime within the first year of training.

Thank you for your post, I wish to start training again. Do you know of any Moo Duk Kwan schools in Houston.

 

[Balrog]

Different schools have different ways of teaching. Many schools nowadays use the method of teaching the students well enough, and over time correcting the mistakes. At my school, by the time they get to be Black Belts they usually have a good foundational understanding of the art, and by the time they get to be 2nd or 3rd degree their techniques are pretty darn good.

3-5 years for black belt is common nowadays. But getting your black belt doesn't mean what the public thinks it means. The uninitiated think the black belt is the expert, and the black belt is not. The black belt has learned enough to be a student. It is like getting your high school diploma. I'm a 3rd degree black belt and I'm not an expert yet (although I'd say I'm pretty close).

That is the exact analogy I use. Just like 1st-12th grade is supposed to get you ready to go to college and do some serious learning, White Belt - 1st Degree Black Belt is all about learning the basics of Taekwondo. At 1st Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo.

Heck, I'm a 6th Degree Black Belt and have the title of Master Instructor. I'm considered an expert, but I don't feel like one. I'm still a student and always will be. There's always something new to learn or perfect.

 

[skribs]

That is the exact analogy I use. Just like 1st-12th grade is supposed to get you ready to go to college and do some serious learning, White Belt - 1st Degree Black Belt is all about learning the basics of Taekwondo. At 1st Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo.

Heck, I'm a 6th Degree Black Belt and have the title of Master Instructor. I'm considered an expert, but I don't feel like one. I'm still a student and always will be. There's always something new to learn or perfect.

At my school, I get the feeling the White - Yellow belt kids classes are even to learn how to learn how to learn Taekwondo. There really isn't much at all in there, but some kids languish for 6-8 months at white belt until they can learn the basics of "stand still" and "follow directions".

 

[Bruce7]

I wanted to start training again. At first I wanted to find a school like my first school back in 1973. I was frustrated In that schools don't teach like that anymore. So I reevaluated what I wanted and needed. My grandsons school forms are not like ones I know, but maybe that's a good thing. My forms would be boring and too complicated to kids. My body has not forgotten the right way to punch,kick, move etc. so if they are not as precise in teaching as I would like it would not matter. What I real want is to help my grandson without interfering in his excitement about his school. So if l take the adult class. I can learn their forms. My granddaughter was showing me her form. I was very confessed until my grandson did the form. My granddaughter was doing a crescent kick so badly I though it was a bad front snap kick. The 12 years I train I wore a white belt most of the time. I don't know It might be fun to be a black belt in 2 years. I can increase my speed and skill , but I will never have the speed or skill I had in my 20's. So getting a black belt might be a good goal. I may start class now or wait till January, I have not decide yet. Regardless I have a large bedroom with a large mirror, so I can start practicing kicks, punches etc. today.
I am feeling better now so I will probably not have time to post as much.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wanted to start training again. At first I wanted to find a school like my first school back in 1973. I was frustrated In that schools don't teach like that anymore. So I reevaluated what I wanted and needed. My grandsons school forms are not like ones I know, but maybe that's a good thing. My forms would be boring and too complicated to kids. My body has not forgotten the right way to punch,kick, move etc. so if they are not as precise in teaching as I would like it would not matter. What I real want is to help my grandson without interfering in his excitement about his school. So if l take the adult class. I can learn their forms. My granddaughter was showing me her form. I was very confessed until my grandson did the form. My granddaughter was doing a crescent kick so badly I though it was a bad front snap kick. The 12 years I train I wore a white belt most of the time. I don't know It might be fun to be a black belt in 2 years. I can increase my speed and skill , but I will never have the speed or skill I had in my 20's. So getting a black belt might be a good goal. I may start class now or wait till January, I have not decide yet. Regardless I have a large bedroom with a large mirror, so I can start practicing kicks, punches etc. today.
I am feeling better now so I will probably not have time to post as much.

I was rereading through this thread, and actually going to suggest that. Beyond being able to help them with their technique, kids love it when 'grown ups' they like train their style, it gives them something to excitedly rant and show off about. The adults tend to roll their eyes, but I'm fairly certain they secretly love it as well. And it provides both a bit more motivation.

 

[dvcochran]

I wanted to start training again. At first I wanted to find a school like my first school back in 1973. I was frustrated In that schools don't teach like that anymore. So I reevaluated what I wanted and needed. My grandsons school forms are not like ones I know, but maybe that's a good thing. My forms would be boring and too complicated to kids. My body has not forgotten the right way to punch,kick, move etc. so if they are not as precise in teaching as I would like it would not matter. What I real want is to help my grandson without interfering in his excitement about his school. So if l take the adult class. I can learn their forms. My granddaughter was showing me her form. I was very confessed until my grandson did the form. My granddaughter was doing a crescent kick so badly I though it was a bad front snap kick. The 12 years I train I wore a white belt most of the time. I don't know It might be fun to be a black belt in 2 years. I can increase my speed and skill , but I will never have the speed or skill I had in my 20's. So getting a black belt might be a good goal. I may start class now or wait till January, I have not decide yet. Regardless I have a large bedroom with a large mirror, so I can start practicing kicks, punches etc. today.
I am feeling better now so I will probably not have time to post as much.

To quote Nike, "just do it". Great attitude. Keep us in the loop.