1960's EPAK - more Chinese ?

[L Canyon]

I have read that Ed Parker changed his Kenpo in the 1960's to bring a more Chinese influence into the art.

Is this from his association with Ark Wong or Jimmy Wing Woo in LA?

Did he incorporate more circular moves in place of linear? Speed instead of power?

It would be very interesting (to me) to see a particular lesson of EPAK before and after this transformation to see the specific changes.

I am not a Kenpo student (I study San Soo) but I have great respect for it. I have read Doc's thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40196

on Kenpo evolution but just wanted a little more information.

Thanks for your help!

Randy

 

[IWishToLearn]

My understanding was that he added the circular movements in addition to the linear. Chuck Sullivan, Dave Hebler, and Doc Chap'el are the three who would know - for my part I will ask Mr. Sullivan next I converse with him and reply back.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In contrast to what you will hear on this thread in later posts. Most changes took place as a result of his study of Lima Lama and the Hula.
Sean

 

[IWishToLearn]

LOL. Lima Lama wasn't formed until much later. Tino Tuilosega was a Parker black belt until he decided to incorporate his royal lineage instruction blended with kenpo to officially formulate Lima Lama. Chuck Sullivan and Dave Hebler were Black Belts under Parker at the same time Mr. Tino was a brown belt.

..unless that was meant jokingly.. upon reflection that could be quite funny...

 

[Touch Of Death]

LOL. Lima Lama wasn't formed until much later. Tino Tuilosega was a Parker black belt until he decided to incorporate his royal lineage instruction blended with kenpo to officially formulate Lima Lama. Chuck Sullivan and Dave Hebler were Black Belts under Parker at the same time Mr. Tino was a brown belt.

..unless that was meant jokingly.. upon reflection that could be quite funny...

The hula was the main thrust of where his changes came from I hear, but what were the Lima Lama Guys studying just before the creation of the art?

 

[Brian Jones]

So does anyone know the Parker "hula set"? I am sure before too long someone will post that they or their teacher had it. I am sure Doc or another senior will chime in. But much of Mr. Parker's changes came from his discussion with Ark Wong, James Woo and others from Chinatown. (And I would assume just some assimilation from those who began to study with Mr. Parker that had Martial Arts Backgrounds such as Doctor Chapel and Dan Inosanto).

Brian Jones

 

[John Bishop]

The hula was the main thrust of where his changes came from I hear, but what were the Lima Lama Guys studying just before the creation of the art?

Limalama was founded in 1965. The original founding members were:
1. Tino Tuilosega, who was a Parker black belt, boxer, and possibly other arts.
2. Richard Nunez, Dan Guzman black belt (Kajukenbo/kenpo)
3. Saul Esquival, Dan Guzman black belt (Kajukenbo/kenpo)
4. John Morolt, Shotokan black belt
5. Sol Kaihewalu, Lua, Okinawa-te
6. Hamea "Tiny" Lafiti, Ark Y. Wong black belt, and possibly other arts.

I only know 3 of the 6, but I'm sure Doc can expand more on their backgrounds.

 

[IWishToLearn]

*Waits for Doc to log in*

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The hula was the main thrust of where his changes came from I hear, but what were the Lima Lama Guys studying just before the creation of the art?

Not Hula (see Mr. Bishp'ds quote on backgrounds.). Growing up Hawaiian, Mr.P no doubt had some hula background, if simply from cultural exposure. I bumped into him often at Hawaiian BBQ's here on the mainland; never saw his daughters hula, but wouldn't be surprised if they did. Kinda the Hawaiian version of brownies or boy scouts...many end up doing it for a bit, at least, and some of the schools have it as a part of P.E.

There is a flowery hand signature that is very hula-like that is in some of the Lima Lama downlines. Sometimes applicable; sometimes making you want to ask, What the heck is that supposed to do?" There are also some signature flares in kung-fu systems that share some of the same loops. In lunching with Leo LeNeoue, an early-day LA kenpo guy (tell Mr. Sullivan Leo sez Hi), he would do a technique...familiar to look at (i.e., 5 swords), but with a bunch of flares inserted. 2 Man set was the same way.

Having gawked at both, I'd certainly say the flares were more CMA then Hawaiian cultural dance.

 

[Doc]

Limalama was founded in 1965. The original founding members were:
1. Tino Tuilosega, who was a Parker black belt, boxer, and possibly other arts.
2. Richard Nunez, Dan Guzman black belt (Kajukenbo/kenpo)
3. Saul Esquival, Dan Guzman black belt (Kajukenbo/kenpo)
4. John Morolt, Shotokan black belt
5. Sol Kaihewalu, Lua, Okinawa-te
6. Hamea "Tiny" Lafiti, Ark Y. Wong black belt, and possibly other arts.

I only know 3 of the 6, but I'm sure Doc can expand more on their backgrounds.

As always John Bishop always has his facts straight. I oddly knew/know all but John (I remember him as Louis) who I should know, but can't shake loose in my memory banks. My friend Tu'umanao "Tino" Tuiolosega was a student of Ed Parker as well as a champion boxer in the Marine Corps, studied Sil Lum, and of course "Lua." Sol's background was almost exclusively in Lua, but he also spent time at Ark Wong and was an accomplished boxer. Sal, along with Haumea, Ed Parker and even Dan Inosanto came out of Ark Wong's. The underlying arts of Lua in the isalnds and Ark Wong's teachings in some way touched almost everyone.

Although Lua was a Polynesian Art, it was said to be supplemented in Hawaii by a series of Pacific-rim martial arts brought in by waves of the imported workers starting in the late 1800s. These included Judo and Ju Jutsu from Japan, Karate from Okinawa, Escrima from the Philippines and even Kung Fu from China. So the mixture of the arts was common and the reason why most backgrounds touch each other in cross training. It is said Henry Okazaki put elements of Lua in his DanZan Ryu JuJitsu, so it worked both ways. Clearly when you look at the effective and destructive power of Kajukenbo, you cannot help but speculate on the Lua influence through Sijo Emperado. Limalama contained all of these influences, including Splashing Hands and certainly Parker's early versions of his Chinese Kenpo. Haumea Lefiti ("Tiny"), and Sal Esquivel are no longer with us. "Tino" has retired and passed the art to his son Rudy, while Richard, and Sol are still actively teaching. Sol left Limalama in the seventies, while Sal's son Danny continued to teach. When Haumea passed away Limalama split into two seperate groups with "Tino" continuing as the head of the original, while Richard and Sal formed their own branch and lineage.

 

[TChase]

In contrast to what you will hear on this thread in later posts. Most changes took place as a result of his study of Lima Lama and the Hula.
Sean

I think you mean Lua. I may be wrong but I believe "Hula" is the ritual/dance expression of the Lua. Check out some Hula and you'll see footwork closely resembling Thunder Hammers as well as others.


edit..
oops...I see Kembudo-Kai Kempoka and Doc already hit this one.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Good stuff.

 

[Doc]

In contrast to what you will hear on this thread in later posts. Most changes took place as a result of his study of Lima Lama and the Hula.
Sean

Parker never studied nor was influenced by Limalama. Limalama was an effort of colaboration to re-create the success of Kajukenbo at Parker's urgings and suggestion. Most of the primaries had a background in various arts and "Tiny" was Parker's senior at Ark Wong's, while Tino was Parker's student before the creation of Limalama. It had many influences including "Splashing Hands,' (via Lefiti) Boxing, (via) Tino, and kajukenbo itself via Sal, and Richard.The Lua influence came primarily from Sol.

 

[L Canyon]

Thanks everybody - a lot to learn!

Were any old movements discarded, or new movements added that were not in Epak previous to the Lua influence?

 

[Hand Sword]

Definitely good stuff! can anyone give one of the specific techniques that existed before and after, and say what was added or deleted?

 

[Doc]

Definitely good stuff! can anyone give one of the specific techniques that existed before and after, and say what was added or deleted?

Before what? After what? When? Your questions assume significant codification of material from different eras and circumstances, that invite reasonable and specific comparisons. This is possible, but only in the broadest of general terms. You'd be better served, by taking a single entity existing like a block, and examine its evolutions. No matter what or when, blocks have always been done, but not always taught or done the same way over time.

 

[Hand Sword]

I was asking along the lines of the starters question. Assuming the system became more chinese influenced during the 60's, what specific technique, like lone kimono, or whatever, existed in the pre chinese way, and in the post chinese influenced way. What was added to it, from the influence, and what was deleted? Just curious to the self defense techniques' evolution. I know it's a tough explanation with words alone.

 

[Doc]

I was asking along the lines of the starters question. Assuming the system became more chinese influenced during the 60's, what specific technique, like lone kimono, or whatever, existed in the pre chinese way, and in the post chinese influenced way. What was added to it, from the influence, and what was deleted? Just curious to the self defense techniques' evolution. I know it's a tough explanation with words alone.

Well it's really tough because Parker went in many directions at once with different people. You mentioned "Lone kimono."

In the early fifties, it was more of a lock, strike, and throw. Everyone who had this technique practiced on them ended up on the ground in a breakfall. Than it became a lock, and a strike. Under the Chinese Influence, this didn't change much except in the philosophy of the approach. The Chinese influence of Ark Wong (and "Tiny" Lefiti), changed the approach and added the "how" to the technique, shifting its philosophical applications that included some very precise body mechanics.

Unfortunately, the emergence of the commercial vehicle for franchises based on motion, omitted this material because, among other things, Parker wasn't ready with teachers to teach it, nor had he fully grasped the full implications of his own material which was a work in progress at the time he decided to expand the business side of his teachings..

 

[Hand Sword]

Very interesting. What was the approach that was changed? Was it just about exacting the movements that existed?

 

[DANNYJR.]

parker never studied nor was influenced by limalama. Limalama was an effort of colaboration to re-create the success of kajukenbo at parker's urgings and suggestion. Most of the primaries had a background in various arts and "tiny" was parker's senior at ark wong's, while tino was parker's student before the creation of limalama. It had many influences including "splashing hands,' (via lefiti) boxing, (via) tino, and kajukenbo itself via sal, and richard.the lua influence came primarily from sol.

hello doc, i am a new member to this site, i am the late sal esquivel's grandson, master danny esquivel's son. Thank you for your clarification on or about limalama and the other arts described in your thread. Just an update to you and who ever know's my father danny esquivel, he does not teach the art any longer, he stopped teaching in the early 2000's. In 2004 he was in a terrible motorcycle accident. He is still alive but he is not the same as he was before. If you know my father personaly or anyone for that matter feel free to email me at [email protected] if you would like to see him or talk to him.