15th Dan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Albertus, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. Albertus

    Albertus Yellow Belt

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    I am following this rank obsession within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dan’s (see my list below) that are growing like rabbits in the Bujinkan. I alone counted 58 of them and I am sure that I am not complete. You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days). And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age? It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan. Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.
    And if someone can add more names to this list, please feel free to do so, just to be as complete as possible.

    15th Dan Bujinkan :
    Joseph Adriance - U.S.A.
    Michael Asuncion - U.S.A.
    Ernani Pinto Bastos - Portugal
    SvenEric Bogsäter - Holland / Sweden
    José Manuel Collado Valencia - Spain
    José María Conejo - Spain
    Arnaud Cousergue - France
    Richard J. Van Donk - U.S.A.
    Brian Duckers - U.K.
    Jesús Equía - Spain
    Robert Erhardt - Germany
    Carlos Etchegaray - Argentina
    Pedro Fleitas González - Spain
    T(h)omas Franzén - Sweden
    Robert Fraser - Japan
    Steffen G. Fröhlich - Germany
    Yost Fulton - U.S.A.
    Sheila Haddad - U.S.A. / Germany (even a woman!)
    Daniel Hernández - Brasil / Argentina
    Jack E. Hoban - U.S.A.
    Darren Horvarth - Autralia
    Robert F. Johnson - U.S.A.
    Peter King - U.K.
    Phillip Legare - U.S.A.
    Ed Lomax - Australia / New Zealand
    Diego López García - Spain
    Carey D. "Bud" Malmstrom - U.S.A.
    Ed(ward) H. Martin - U.S.A.
    Kevin Millis - U.S.A.
    Carlos Morales Páez - Spain
    Brin(ley) Morgan - U.K.
    Natasha Tomarkin Morgan - U.K. (wow another woman!)
    Hiroshi Nagase - Japan
    Toshiro Nagato - Japan
    Keiji Nakadai - Japan
    Moti Nativ - Israël
    Yukio Noguchi - Japan
    Koichi (Kohi) Oguri - Japan
    Kim Oliveras - Spain
    Craig Olson - Japan
    Guillermo Lugo Pérez - Spain
    Lubos Pokorny - Czech Republik
    Keith Porter - U.K.
    Jeff(rey) Prather - U.S.A.
    Paco (Francisco) Rolán Belmonte - Spain
    Enzo Rossi - Italy
    Dean Rostohar - Croatia
    Dale Seago - U.S.A.
    Hideo Seno - Japan
    Juan Manuel Serrano - Spain
    Dick Severance - U.S.A.
    Isamu Shiraishi - Japan
    Norman Smithers - U.K.
    Nikolaos Stefanidis - Germany
    Larry Turner - U.S.A.
    Mariëtte van der Vliet - Holland (and a third woman!)
    Danny Waxman - Israël
    Doug Wilson - Japan

     
  2. Hayseed

    Hayseed White Belt

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    Ever wonder if it's done like this to show how meaningless rank truly is.
    Also, there is no "rank obsession" in the BJK, we don't flaunt our rank. We don't walk around saying "I'm a shodan, look at me!"

    Now you're getting it.
    It is a joke. Unfortunately some don't get it

    Something wrong with women?
     
  3. Shicomm

    Shicomm Purple Belt

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    So , basicly you're saying that everybody is chasing rank just because they're @ a certain level ? Hmm....

    and you can know it, right ? ( don't think so... )

    What's the problem by keep walking the path you always have ?
    Seems to me that you think that the path actually has a start and a finish...
    If you think so.... well , you'll find out when you're done...

    Well thank you so much for that... becoming a joke means that at least i'm funny right ? :D

    Well, it's a bit tough to comment decently to a rather harsh statement isn't it ?

    You've been to Japan and trained with the various shihan ?
    If not ; please do so. You broad up your path and might see things a bit differently....
    The truth might suprise you...

    I'd like to end up with a quote:

    It doesnt matter who you are, where you're from or what your rank is. We're in this together. If you're not in it for the love of the art ; would you please ..... ?! ' Koone '
     
  4. benkyoka

    benkyoka Yellow Belt

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    I didn't know there was a 'list'. Perhaps you are the one 'obsessed'.
     
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  5. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok being some what stupid What rank dose the head of the system wear (claim to be)
    If he is a 20th then do we look at these 15th dans as being equivilent to what in other systems
     
  6. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Hatsumi Sensei is the Soke. He in effect is not within the dan ranking system. How to compare dan ranks between systems? It is pretty hard though some have tried.

    Now as to the ranking system in the Bujinkan. I do not care, really I have never cared. The ranks I were given came from a friend/teacher and it would have been rude to have refused. As to everyone else's rank, I do not care. (that is for their ego to deal with) Now out of all the higher ranked Shidoshi and Shihan you will find some great teacher's. The second on your list Michael Asuncion is fantastic and I am having him over in March to teach. Bottom line though most people I know in the Bujinkan just want to train. [​IMG]
     
  7. Shicomm

    Shicomm Purple Belt

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    You're so right Brian! :)
     
  8. IWishToLearn

    IWishToLearn 3rd Black Belt

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    William Chow was a 15th Dan too...in Kenpo. :)
     
  9. Albertus

    Albertus Yellow Belt

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    I am glad my post triggers so many different responds. That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!

    Keep posting, and I didn't know there is also a 15th Dan in Kenpo.
     
  10. stephen

    stephen Purple Belt

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  11. redfang

    redfang Purple Belt

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    I recently promoted myself to 144th dan in the best, ultimate MA system that the world ever has or will ever know, which I will be inventing tomorrow. :D
     
  12. Bigshadow

    Bigshadow Senior Master

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    I do not like rank chasing, I think it is detrimental to your training! I personally don't train to "try and get a certain rank". I train because I like the training. It benefits my life. When put into perspective, rank is quite trivial.

    Most of the time I don't wear a belt, unless we are doing sword work or something.
     
  13. Koryu Rich

    Koryu Rich Yellow Belt

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    You assume that people are chasing rank! Rank is awarded sometimes in can be becuase it is sought and others it's unexpected.

    I've no doubt there are some out there that do chase rank but I bet there are a lot that don't.

    Rather than questioing those who have rank I always find it odd that some point out that they turned down a certain rank on x amount of occasions as opposed to those that just accept the rank as a gift/encouragement and then work their backsides off to improve themselves even more.

    At the end of the day it's a good test of character.
    Do you sit back and think "right I've done it now I do in fact rock" or do you think "dam better get my *** in gear and make sure I can carry this off and justify the faith that's been put in me"???
     
  14. stauburn

    stauburn Yellow Belt

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    Just out of curiousity , why do you care about who has what rank and how does that effect your training?
     
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  15. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

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    "triggers"? I think you're giving yourself a lot of credit. This IS a discussion board, after all...
    You're not listening/reading. Most folks in the Bujinkan don't care about rank. Last time I was in Japan, I was recommended to take the Sakki test by two Japanese shihan. I told them I'd rather spend that 50,000yen on training.

    The purpose of ranking in the Bujinkan is a bit different than other arts. If I were you, I'd spend more time obsessing over what these "ranks" mean to folks actually in the Bujinkan, instead of how many mega-dans there are out there.

    Oh, & BTW, please share with us your historical knowledge of "Ninja".
     
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  16. ArmorOfGod

    ArmorOfGod Senior Master

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    The founder of judo went to 12th dan.

    AoG
     
  17. benkyoka

    benkyoka Yellow Belt

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    Posthumously.
     
  18. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Who cares? Hatsumi has chosed to designate 15 dan rankings (or 10 with 5 divisions of 10th). If he decided tomorrow to designate everyone's status within BBT as ham, chicken, or turkey sandwiches... that's his right. It's his art, his style, and his system. Personally, my minimal contact with a small handful of high ranked Bujinkan students has left me very impressed.

    Any ranking is only meaningful to other people ranked within that system. You can't cross-compare them, unless the styles have worked together and chosen to develop some level of equivalency.
     
  19. Haiookami

    Haiookami White Belt

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    RANKS ARE IDEALS

    If you ever have the time spend it with any of these people currently i have the honour to be training with one the main message they give is this

    NINPO The path of Peace offers a complete ideal that encourages growth while being humble, but not timid, militant but not violent, unpredictable but not chaotic, encourage safety and personal growth of the people we interact with connecting us with that which is larger than ourselves

    Rank is a path in the world there are many paths ranks is only a chapter in a book there are many books its is your choice to choose which books and which paths to follow
     
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  20. Shinobi Teikiatsu

    Shinobi Teikiatsu Green Belt

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    I know that this isn't much to speak of, but I'm an 8th kyu and I've been training for almost two years.

    The thing of it is, though, I went a whole year being 10th kyu, while the student guidebook my teacher wrote said that you were to be tested for 9th kyu after three months. This doesn't mean I'm weak, because he and the rest of my classmates (all of whom are around 10 years older than me) told me I learned quickly and was one of the more advanced students. I then spent about three months as 9th kyu, and have been 8th kyu for about five months.

    Now, I'm not complaining about any of this, I'm just saying I really love how my Sensei tries to instill that rank doesn't matter. He casually throws out "Rob, you're x-kyu" or something like that, without showing any test or whatever. And, unlike when I trained in jiu-jitsu, there's no set amount of time until your next belt, and there's no "test" he just judges how you train and then informs you that you need a new belt.

    I'm not a rank chaser, I love being surprised.123
     
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