10th Dan?

[yorkshirelad]

In fact it would be worse, because Donald Trump is the CEO, but a 10th dan is not a sokeship. This person would not have been a soke.

I reread Ceasar's post and noticed that his teacher was given his own "Kai of the ryu". I thought, when I first read the post that the teacher was given/began a ryu, which would've warranted the title of Soke.Maybe Hanshi would have been more accurate.

Whatever title was or wasn't used it has become apparent that some are using embarassingly lofty titles to somehow, perversely elevate their worth as people and Martial Artists, while at the same time using the titlwe out of context.

There are some associations now where the highest ranks come with the title O'Sensei.

Btw, I am not in anyway condemning Ceasar's teacher. My perceptions are based on my experience of many Martial Arts Associations.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,

It is interesting how "titles" are so flaunted these days. Perhaps because we, as humans, want to be noticed and affirmed? I think many miss the true meaning of the titles.

Traditionally, titles were given to you by others and not spoken to you in your presence. Like "Oh, that is Shihan so and so". But you would never use the title to refer to the practitioner in their presence. That is disrespectful, as the senior should have some humility, and as such be uncomfortable with hearing that. And never encourage it. Who welcomes any unnecessary discomfort?

I hear of teachers answering the phone by saying "Master such and such", or "This is grandmaster bla bla bla". Kind of makes me laugh. If he were truly known to be a "master" he would not have to remind everyone every chance he/she got the opportunity. It would be well known already.

Those of a high skill level, and perhaps ranking, should stand out because of the way they practice their art, carry themselves, and treat other people. The real "master's, Shihan's, Soke's, etc..." will not be the ones proclaiming it for themselves, or wearing the titles on their uniforms. They will be the quiet, unassuming ones who sit back, watch, and practice with a calm spirit and a smile. We have all seen them, right?

I am not saying that the above is always the case, but it is most often the case... IMHO.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Hello,

It is interesting how "titles" are so flaunted these days. Perhaps because we, as humans, want to be noticed and affirmed? I think many miss the true meaning of the titles.

Traditionally, titles were given to you by others and not spoken to you in your presence. Like "Oh, that is Shihan so and so". But you would never use the title to refer to the practitioner in their presence. That is disrespectful, as the senior should have some humility, and as such be uncomfortable with hearing that. And never encourage it. Who welcomes any unnecessary discomfort?

I hear of teachers answering the phone by saying "Master such and such", or "This is grandmaster bla bla bla". Kind of makes me laugh. If he were truly known to be a "master" he would not have to remind everyone every chance he/she got the opportunity. It would be well known already.

Those of a high skill level, and perhaps ranking, should stand out because of the way they practice their art, carry themselves, and treat other people. The real "master's, Shihan's, Soke's, etc..." will not be the ones proclaiming it for themselves, or wearing the titles on their uniforms. They will be the quiet, unassuming ones who sit back, watch, and practice with a calm spirit and a smile. We have all seen them, right?

I am not saying that the above is always the case, but it is most often the case... IMHO.

Thank you,
Milt G.

You have a very good point. For instance, Ueshiba was never refered to as O'Sensei in his presence, it was a informal name given by his students when refering to him. To his face, his students called him Sensei.

Now people are using the term O'Sensei as a title when refering to themselves, it's just embarasing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But what if you are an Irishman of the Senseigh clan? After Ellis Island mangled your family name, might not you then really be O'Sensei?

Daniel

 

[mwd0818]

I was referred to by an Okinawan stylist the other day as Sensei. He's perhaps 20 or 30 years my senior and I'm guessing has just a few more years in the arts than I do. I laughed and told him not to call me that, it's just weird . . .

Then again, I teach and train in American arts, and we generally stay away from most of the titles and honorifics used in Japanese or Chinese (or Korean). I stick with Mr. for the kids, and for adults, well, you can call me what you want, and if its disrespectful, we can work that out on the mat.

 

[Milt G.]

You have a very good point. For instance, Ueshiba was never refered to as O'Sensei in his presence, it was a informal name given by his students when refering to him. To his face, his students called him Sensei.

Now people are using the term O'Sensei as a title when refering to themselves, it's just embarasing.

Hello,
I agree. A little "interesting" to me that one would take, much less, refer to themselves as, such a lofty title.
I know of, perhaps, a handful of practitioners in the last 100 years who would qualify for the title "O-Sensei" IMO. The founder of Aikido was one.
Oh well, many different persons, and personalities to consider.
Thanks for your reply.
Milt G.

 

[Milt G.]

I was referred to by an Okinawan stylist the other day as Sensei. He's perhaps 20 or 30 years my senior and I'm guessing has just a few more years in the arts than I do. I laughed and told him not to call me that, it's just weird . . .

Then again, I teach and train in American arts, and we generally stay away from most of the titles and honorifics used in Japanese or Chinese (or Korean). I stick with Mr. for the kids, and for adults, well, you can call me what you want, and if its disrespectful, we can work that out on the mat.

Hello,
I do not think that "Sensei", "Sifu", "Teacher" or "Instructor" are inappropriate titles if one, in fact, teaches.

What I usually refer to as "interesting" are the titles above those. Starting with the first level above. Not that I feel them inappropriate by and large, I do not.

I just feel that some of their useage(s) is "over emphasized".

Could very well be an American thing.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[mwd0818]

Hello,
I do not think that "Sensei", "Sifu", "Teacher" or "Instructor" are inappropriate titles if one, in fact, teaches.

It was strange just because I would consider him a Senior to me, in which case, I am not a teacher, but rather a student. That, and well, more titles . . . Inappropriate? No. Strange? Yes.

Signed,

Almighty Great Grand O'Master Shihan Hanshi Soke Sensei Kai Roku Ippon SeoiNage Kobudo Geisha

^That's what happens when you let Americans with no real knowledge of language come up with their own titles . . .

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It was strange just because I would consider him a Senior to me, in which case, I am not a teacher, but rather a student. That, and well, more titles . . . Inappropriate? No. Strange? Yes.

Signed,

Almighty Great Grand O'Master Shihan Hanshi Soke Sensei Kai Roku Ippon SeoiNage Kobudo Geisha

^That's what happens when you let Americans with no real knowledge of language come up with their own titles . . .

It would be nice if my girlfriend were a kobudo geisha.

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

It would be nice if my girlfriend were a kobudo geisha.
Daniel

Yes, I like being slapped about by the ladies too.

 

[yorkshirelad]

All this talk about titles just reminded me of an incident that happened seven or eight years ago. I was speaking to Gene LaBelle and called him "Sir". He instantly got a fierce look on his face and hissed "My name's Gene, Domnic". I felt weird because the respect I have for him dictates that I call him sir, but he WANTS to be called by his name. Then I got to thinking. His name IS his title. When Ed Parker was alive, his name was important. Anyone in EPAK who has his name on their BB cert on the instructor line, is shown to be legit, the real deal. If the name didn't have Granmaster behind it noone would care. It's the same with Gene LaBelle. Noone has to say LaBelle Hanshi for anyone to take notice, they just have to say Gene LaBelle and the name is the seal of quality. I think all instructors should learn from this mindset.

 

[mwd0818]

All this talk about titles just reminded me of an incident that happened seven or eight years ago. I was speaking to Gene LaBelle and called him "Sir". He instantly got a fierce look on his face and hissed "My name's Gene, Domnic". I felt weird because the respect I have for him dictates that I call him sir, but he WANTS to be called by his name. Then I got to thinking. His name IS his title. When Ed Parker was alive, his name was important. Anyone in EPAK who has his name on their BB cert on the instructor line, is shown to be legit, the real deal. If the name didn't have Granmaster behind it noone would care. It's the same with Gene LaBelle. Noone has to say LaBelle Hanshi for anyone to take notice, they just have to say Gene LaBelle and the name is the seal of quality. I think all instructors should learn from this mindset.

Unfortunately, too many instructors fail to understand why their name doesn't carry that weight, therefore they insist on the titles.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

All this talk about titles just reminded me of an incident that happened seven or eight years ago. I was speaking to Gene LaBelle and called him "Sir". He instantly got a fierce look on his face and hissed "My name's Gene, Domnic".

I am sorry, but unless he was expressing mock outrage for comedic value (or had asked you previously not to call him that), Gene was being rude.

In most circumstances, it is polite to address people as sir and maam. This is not martial arts, but simple courtesy. A sargeant telling a private in the military, "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is appropriate. The same sargeant saying that to a retail clerk is rude.

Gene should simply have said, "Just call me Gene."

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

I am sorry, but unless he was expressing mock outrage for comedic value (or had asked you previously not to call him that), Gene was being rude.

In most circumstances, it is polite to address people as sir and maam. This is not martial arts, but simple courtesy. A sargeant telling a private in the military, "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is appropriate. The same sargeant saying that to a retail clerk is rude.

Gene should simply have said, "Just call me Gene."

Daniel

It does sound that way, but I negated to tell you that he had told me nicely to call him Gene numerous times before and I kept on with the "sir" business. It is a hard habit to break, when faced with ones elders and betters, but I finally got the message.

He also has that quirky, impish humour. As someone who is not close to him, I believe it would be hard to tell if he was simply joking around. It's best to er on the side of caution.

 

[Milt G.]

It was strange just because I would consider him a Senior to me, in which case, I am not a teacher, but rather a student. That, and well, more titles . . . Inappropriate? No. Strange? Yes.

Signed,

Almighty Great Grand O'Master Shihan Hanshi Soke Sensei Kai Roku Ippon SeoiNage Kobudo Geisha

^That's what happens when you let Americans with no real knowledge of language come up with their own titles . . .

Hello,
It is always surprising, and may sound strange, when your seniors acknowledge your teaching and learning skills.

We often refer to each other as "Sensei", regardless of our respective (no pun intended) rank or position.

Part of the journey, I think?

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Milt G.]

I am sorry, but unless he was expressing mock outrage for comedic value (or had asked you previously not to call him that), Gene was being rude.

In most circumstances, it is polite to address people as sir and maam. This is not martial arts, but simple courtesy. A sargeant telling a private in the military, "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is appropriate. The same sargeant saying that to a retail clerk is rude.

Gene should simply have said, "Just call me Gene."

Daniel

Hello,
That is just "Gene"... Quite a bit of comedy, and quite humble, too. He will do almost anything for a laugh. Did you know he has a pink gi???

One of the "living legends" of the martial arts, I think?

Thanks,
Milt G.

 

[nails]

Its my understanding that in Judo you could theoretically progress past 10th Dan, except no one has lived long enough to receive it.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Its my understanding that in Judo you could theoretically progress past 10th Dan, except no one has lived long enough to receive it.

Technically, no. Only 10 dan levels have been defined.

 

[Chris Parker]

Correct, and yet not. There is a 12th Dan which has only been awarded to Kano Sensei post-humously. Interestingly, I've found no indication of an 11th Dan ever being awarded (even to Kano before 12th).....

 

[Bruno@MT]

Imo, they awarded that 12th dan so that noone would ever equal him in rank.
If he'd 'only' be 10th, then there would be people at the same level as him.
I guess that is why they made it a 12th instead of an 11th. That way they retained the option of someday instituting an 11th dan without having the same problem again.

Of course the kokodan can do whatever they want. They could award an 11th if they wanted to but at this time, that rank does not even exist.

This is not different from the 9th and 10th dan kendo. They still exist, but they are never aarded anymore.