10th Dan?

[Dale Seago]

Tenth dan doesn't automatically make you a soke equvallent. Some systems go up to 15.

The only one I know of that does is mine, the Bujinkan. See http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

This ranking system has no relevance to, or meaningful points of correspondence with, ranking in any other organization or art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only one I know of that does is mine, the Bujinkan. See http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

This ranking system has no relevance to, or meaningful points of correspondence with, ranking in any other organization or art.

Bujinkan is the only legitimate system that I am aware of that goes to fifteen, though I have seen ads for guys in magazines who claim to be thirteenth dan in taekwondo or hapkido, so I suppose that there are other systems that get into dans in the teens.

Daniel

 

[Senjojutsu]

Bujinkan is the only legitimate system that I am aware of that goes to fifteen, though I have seen ads for guys in magazines who claim to be thirteenth dan in taekwondo or hapkido, so I suppose that there are other systems that get into dans in the teens.

Daniel

However neither Tae Kwon Do or Hapkido are JMA, which goes back to the opening post's question.

So outside of the Ninjers - name one Japanese-centric MA organization whose leaders have something higher than 10th dan rank?

Here is a link regarding 10th dans in Kodokan Judo:

http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm

Again even a 10th dan doesn't convey perfection or an end to learning, think of it as the apex rank awarded by the organization. Or like an Oscar awarded for "lifetime achievement".

But at that altitude, it may be more to determine who gets to line up first at the buffet table, or more succinctly when Numero Uno dies, does it convey order of succession? (Maybe not by the way - succession sequence has other influences.)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

However neither Tae Kwon Do or Hapkido are JMA, which goes back to the opening post's question.

So outside of the Ninjers - name one Japanese-centric MA organization whose leaders have something higher than 10th dan rank?

Wasn't the point. Since outside of Bujinkan, these guys seem to be either self appointed or hold rank through someone who is, I'd be more surprised if some white guy hadn't appointed himself as a higher than tenth dan in a JMA. But I'm not going to comb Blackbelt Magazine's advertising archives in an attempt to find one.

In any case my point was the same thing that you state below:

Here is a link regarding 10th dans in Kodokan Judo:

http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm

Again even a 10th dan doesn't convey perfection or an end to learning, think of it as the apex rank awarded by the organization. Or like an Oscar awarded for "lifetime achievement".

But at that altitude, it may be more to determine who gets to line up first at the buffet table, or more succinctly when Numero Uno dies, does it convey order of succession? (Maybe not by the way - succession sequence has other influences.)

I agree with you on both of these paragraphs 100%. In a large org, when numero uno dies or steps down, their successor is generally voted in by the officers of the org.

Daniel

Daniel

 

[arnisador]

Here is a link regarding 10th dans in Kodokan Judo:

http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm

In Judo you can, in principle, go to 12th (posthumously). Even Spinal tap only went to 11!

In some other JMAs, esp. some weapons systems, the limit is 5th or 8th.

 

[Aiki Lee]

In aiki ninjutsu 10th dan means you have been awarded menkyo kaiden in the system and have permission to make any changes to the way you teach the art and still be a recognized Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu instructor.

no one has attained it yet or will attain it for a very long time.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
Sorry I am late on this one.

Yes, sadly, ranking has become more inflated the last 20 years, or so.

Used to be only a half dozen, or so, Judan in all the world. Now there seems to be that many per metropolitan area!

All the more reason we have to actually see what an instructor can do, and not always trust a specific ranking. If they can "dance", it will show! Especially important as there is no one governing body, and the standards are different for most organizations. Of course, skill can be considered somewhat subjective. I have seen many highly skilled junior Dan grades, and less skilled high Dan grades.

I think that having physical/curriculum based requirements to Godan is good. The higher levels (above, say, Godan) for contribution to the art, teaching and administrative position within the organization. I do know that some of the inflated ranking is due, in part, to allowing students the ability to promote. I have seen quite a few schools that have head instructors at Sandan, or below, and that have many advanced students "log jammed" below their teachers level. I can see some "adjustments" made, in this case, to help facilitate the continued growth and advancement of the student base.
Certainly not to diminish the standards of the art, though.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello,
I think that having physical/curriculum based requirements to Godan is good. The higher levels (above, say, Godan) for contribution to the art, teaching and administrative position within the organization.

I agree with your post, but I do find this part a bit odd: higher levels? Usually, administrative dans began at about fifth or sixth in most systems. Many systems do not even have a tenth; kendo only goes to eighth at this point (ninth was eliminated). Those that do have one often do not have anything higher that is not posthumous (I know that the Bujinkan and maybe the other X-kans go higher than tenth).

In any case, I am totally with the main thrust of your post.

Daniel

 

[Milt G.]

I agree with your post, but I do find this part a bit odd: higher levels? Usually, administrative dans began at about fifth or sixth in most systems. Many systems do not even have a tenth; kendo only goes to eighth at this point (ninth was eliminated). Those that do have one often do not have anything higher that is not posthumous (I know that the Bujinkan and maybe the other X-kans go higher than tenth).

In any case, I am totally with the main thrust of your post.

Daniel

Thanks, Daniel, for your reply.

I know that arts, groups and organizations do things differently. Some time ago, many systems terminated at Godan. These days many go somewhat higher, in varying degrees. No pun intended.

I do not know if I would feel comfortable advertising myself above 10th Dan, though. Even if that were the case... I mean... What would people think???

Thanks again,
Milt G.

 

[Bruno@MT]

(I know that the Bujinkan and maybe the other X-kans go higher than tenth).

Only Bujinkan afaik. In Genbukan, 10th is highest, but only attainable by the one who will become grandmaster. The highest grade presently awarded is 8th, and Genbukan exists for 25 years already.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Menkyo/kaiden is a pre-organization practice.

Most organizations will consider you a master at fourth or fifth anyway. In some organizations, you can reach fourth dan by the age of fifteen. It really depends on the org, but there is no dan equivalent to a menkyo/kaiden.


Of course the age/dan is recent. The whole kyu/dan system in the martial arts is recent, less than a hundred years. Also, when Koryo arts were founded, you didn't have millions of practitioners worldwide looking to get involved. Dealing with a worldwide membership count wasn't an issue at the time; the school was based in one location with maybe a few senior students teaching in the same region.

Tenth dan doesn't automatically make you a soke equvallent. Some systems go up to 15. There is only one soke at a time, whereas tenth dan is usually conferred to you by an organization or you have gone out and started your own org and promoted yourself to 9th or 10th dan.

Modern orgs that use the kyu/dan system exercise complete control over the nature and practice of the art. You don't inherit sokeship at any dan. The 'soke' in a modern MA is a board of directors or the head of whatever organization regulates the art.

Daniel

You have to see my point, menkyo Kaiden represents complete transmition of the art, therefore the highest rank excluding inheritor, or soke. My comments were to try to put the whole rank thing into perspective. If thirteen year olds were given menkyo Kaiden (Takamatsu and I believe Tanemura recieved his first Menkyo kaiden at 15) then there should be no difference between that and a 15 year old child being say fifth, six, or even eighth Dan.
I'm not saying I agree with this sentiment, I'm just saying that traditionally children have been awarded high rank in Koryu.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Only Bujinkan afaik. In Genbukan, 10th is highest, but only attainable by the one who will become grandmaster. The highest grade presently awarded is 8th, and Genbukan exists for 25 years already.

Technically Bujinkan go to 10th Dan and the subsequent ranks are all levels of 10th Dan. This can be confusing, so I believe even Hatsumi has begun using the terms 11th Dan, 12th Dan ect.

 

[Live True]

Being a relative newbie, I can't speak to the politics or from years of experience, but I do know that one of the leaders in my style, Sensei George Mattson was just recently promoted to 10th Dan (last Saturday, in fact).

In this case, it was an honor conveyed upon him by the organization he founded (IUKF-International Uechi Karate Federation) and his numerous past students. Sensei Mattson has taught Uechi Ryu for over 50 years and is recognized as a the first American taught Uechi-Ryu in Okinawa and the first to bring this style to America. While I understand this title was given as an honor, he did perform the Seisan kata for all in attendence at his summer camp, just prior to being awarded this title.

As I understand it Uechi has two ranks that run concurrently from sixth degree onward. Master titles are honorific titles awarded for contributions to the art and follow: Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi, and Hanshi Sei. Dan Ranks are based on demonstrated skill and flow from Godan (fifth) to Rokudan, Nanadan, Hachidan, Kudan, and Judan. We do not have a rank after this.

Obviously, when you get to the last few Dan ranks, there is a bit of overlap. I do not think you can seek to "test" for any ranks after Godan, and must be invited to "test".

Perhaps it is my ignorance, but it appears this ranking was given out of respect, and not to build or pad a resume. In all my interactions with Sensei Mattson, he has been a humble, freindly, and honorable man. I think the fact that I am a relative newbie (just under 3 years), live several states away, and have had interactions with the man say volumes as well (I readily admit I moderate one of the forums on his website, as a disclaimer). I have, though, been impressed with his humble freindliness and longevity in the art. I do not think he is perfect, but he has certainly made significant contributions to the art's growth and existence. Is this not what master and dan ranks should be?

I realize that master/dan ranks are not equal across all styles or even all schools. But I think it does those teachers who have earned their titles a great disservice to immediately assume most higher ranks are "gimme's". Why not let the person show thier worth before you assume..both in how they carry themselves and also in how they perform?

Humbly offered and posted,

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You have to see my point, menkyo Kaiden represents complete transmition of the art, therefore the highest rank excluding inheritor, or soke. My comments were to try to put the whole rank thing into perspective. If thirteen year olds were given menkyo Kaiden (Takamatsu and I believe Tanemura recieved his first Menkyo kaiden at 15) then there should be no difference between that and a 15 year old child being say fifth, six, or even eighth Dan.
I'm not saying I agree with this sentiment, I'm just saying that traditionally children have been awarded high rank in Koryu.

Good points, though I would venture that those two individuals are exceptions to the norm. Most youngsters cannot write a symphony, though Mozart did.

Also, Menkyo Kaiden and tenth dan do not automatically equivocate. Dan ranks above fifth are generally awarded more for what one has done for the art rather than for their technical ability and exhaustive knowledge in the art. Time in grade is a factor as well, so in many orgs, a fifteen year old may not even be able to hold a rank higher than first dan. The kyu/dan system awards rank on a different basis than what an Menkyo/Kaiden is awarded for. By fifth dan, a student has often learned an arts complete curriculum and has likely been teaching for several years, frequently in their own dojo. Thus, the entire curriculum has already been transmitted to them.

In any case, the big issue with tenth dans seems to be not their age, but that so many seem to be self promoted.

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

In any case, the big issue with tenth dans seems to be not their age, but that so many seem to be self promoted.

Daniel

This issue does cause heated debate and there is no real answer to how 10th Dan should be awarded, more so in the Gendai and western systems.

A former teacher of mine was promoted to 8th Dan by a board of quite distinguished masters and he tested for the rank. He has a great deal of experience in two forms of gendai jujutsu and American Kenpo. His testing panel included three very well known "old school" Kenpo Grandmasters, two Jujutsu Grandmasters one of whom was also a Lua grandmaster, one other Lua grandmaster, a founder of Lima Lama and a very prominant Shorin ryu master and yet, many in the Kenpo community refused to recognize his rank. The strange thing is that of those who refused to recognize some had awarded themselves their 10th Dan.

The problem is there is no real standard for 10th Dan. There is no true International governing body for all martial arts and if there was, (like IMAF for instance) people would just ignore it, in favour of quick, self promotion.

Mr Parker was once asked what basis he had for promoting himself to 10th Dan and his answer was (i'm paraphrasing) "I observed the standard of my peers and ranked myself accordingly." Regardless of what anyone says, Ed Parker was a true 10th Dan because he truly founded his own art and developed concepts and principles that had not been covered before. I would say that the worth of a 10th Dan is the acceptance of one's students and peers.

 

[Milt G.]

This issue does cause heated debate and there is no real answer to how 10th Dan should be awarded, more so in the Gendai and western systems.

A former teacher of mine was promoted to 8th Dan by a board of quite distinguished masters and he tested for the rank. He has a great deal of experience in two forms of gendai jujutsu and American Kenpo. His testing panel included three very well known "old school" Kenpo Grandmasters, two Jujutsu Grandmasters one of whom was also a Lua grandmaster, one other Lua grandmaster, a founder of Lima Lama and a very prominant Shorin ryu master and yet, many in the Kenpo community refused to recognize his rank. The strange thing is that of those who refused to recognize some had awarded themselves their 10th Dan.

The problem is there is no real standard for 10th Dan. There is no true International governing body for all martial arts and if there was, (like IMAF for instance) people would just ignore it, in favour of quick, self promotion.

Mr Parker was once asked what basis he had for promoting himself to 10th Dan and his answer was (i'm paraphrasing) "I observed the standard of my peers and ranked myself accordingly." Regardless of what anyone says, Ed Parker was a true 10th Dan because he truly founded his own art and developed concepts and principles that had not been covered before. I would say that the worth of a 10th Dan is the acceptance of one's students and peers.

Hello,
Should 10th Dan be awarded by a single person, or a group? If a person, I would assume someone who already holds said degree? If a group, what should be the make up, or motive?

Can anyone under 10th Dan bestow such an "honor"?

All of the 10th Dans out there today got them some how... Some self appointed, some "awarded" by an organization or a person.

So, I wonder what begot the FIRST 10th Dan? Then, perhaps, the second...?

Ideas, theorys???

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just for the record, I do not consider a self promotion to be automatically bad.

An eighth dan breaking off and self promoting as an organizational head really does not bother me in the least.

But if it is a matter of' 'he-has-one-so-I-want-one-too' with a barely fifth dan jumping to tenth 'just because', then I think that it is silly. And when it is done entirely because they know that they can sell more DVD's, then I have a bit of a problem with it.

Daniel

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

My former Sensei was a 4th Dan for years before I met him and for 7 of the almost 12 years I was with him. (The man started Jujutsu in 1962)

His Sensei had stopped practicing the style of Jujutsu our's taught.
Some in our Doj asked the Sensei if he was ever going to promote our Sensei.

He did 1 better, he bestowed on our Sensie his own Kai of the Ryu, effectivly making himna 10th Dan.

He was the same the minute before the 10th as he was the minute after.
He also could not get used to being called Soke, so he banned the title in class.

Now that a group of us have left him, we felt it would be trashy for us to do what others have done in the same situation and self promote, at this point.

My feeling is,, when we are ready to promote someone to the next rank below us, then we will go one higher. Untill then I am happy with my rank, 4th dan is good enough for a 36 year old and would feel like a joke with anything higher than 6th before reaching 50. (and we will probably cut it off there.)

 

[yorkshirelad]

He also could not get used to being called Soke, so he banned the title in class.

Your sensei was right not to use the title Soke in class. He should be refered to as Sensei. This would be like Donald Trump insisting on being called CEO by his subordinates.
There is no criteria for 10th Dan. Ohtsuka was awarded his 10th in Wado ryu by the Japanese government after recieving a yondan from Funakoshi. Granted, he did have a menkyo Kaiden in JuJutsu. Can you imagine if I advertised that I had a 10th Dan and Barack Obama had awarded it to me?
The inheritor of Kara Ho Kenpo, Sam Kuoha was awarded his 10th by professor Chow's advisor and GP, Dr Donald Perry in a letter, the letter was co authored by Professor Chow's wife Patsy. No one can deny that GM Kuoha is the real deal and a true 10th Dan.
If someone decides to promote themselves to 10th Dan and teach I have no problem with it. Sooner or later they will be villified as a great martial artist or exposed as a fraud.
Personally, at this point in my life, I cannot understand why anyone would want the responsibility of 10th Dan. We are all seasoned Martial Artists (I expect) and we all know that as instructors our students rey on us for much more than martial arts instruction. I cannot fathom the responsibility of the head of an association that holds the goals, dreams and in some cases lives of the mulittudes in their hands. I feel the same way about the President of the US. Why anyone would want that job is beyond me.

 

[arnisador]

Your sensei was right not to use the title Soke in class. [...] This would be like Donald Trump insisting on being called CEO by his subordinates.

In fact it would be worse, because Donald Trump is the CEO, but a 10th dan is not a sokeship. This person would not have been a soke.