10 Reasons to Keep Gay Marriage Illegal...

[hardheadjarhead]

Goodness. Vermont will have legalized civil unions as of today:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/09/30/national/a012248D93.DTL&feed=rss.news


I have to comment on this one by 7starmantis:

Nowhere in the bible does it say hell was created for his children or any human for that matter. For someone who grew up with this "garbage" you seem to quote it quite incorrectly.


Well, then...let's READ THE BIBLE:

Deu 32:19 And when the LORD saw [it], he abhorred [them], because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Deu 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

Deu 32:24 [They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

Deu 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs.

Deu 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men...


That's just for starters. There is far more to support Heretic's statement both in the Old Testament and the New. Distance yourself from that Old Testament God of wrath and you'll come close to embracing Marcionism...and that is heresy.




Regards,


Steve

 

[Makalakumu]

I am a Unitarian Universalist and my "religion" will marry people including homosexuals. The state empowers UU's clergy to grant rights to heterosexuals. The state does not empower UU's clergy to grant rights associated with marriage to these couples. However, I grew up Catholic and all marriages of the Catholic faith were recognized. Thus, it can be said that the government favors Catholics over UU because only the parts of UU faith that dovetail with Catholicism are recognized by the state. This favoritism is clearly unconstitutional. The state must recognize all marriages done performed by my church or it shows a clear bias toward one type of religion.

 

[7starmantis]

I have to comment on this one by 7starmantis:

Nowhere in the bible does it say hell was created for his children or any human for that matter. For someone who grew up with this "garbage" you seem to quote it quite incorrectly.


Well, then...let's READ THE BIBLE:

Deu 32:19 And when the LORD saw [it], he abhorred [them], because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Deu 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

Deu 32:24 [They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

Deu 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs.

Deu 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men...


That's just for starters. There is far more to support Heretic's statement both in the Old Testament and the New. Distance yourself from that Old Testament God of wrath and you'll come close to embracing Marcionism...and that is heresy.




Regards,


Steve

Lol, I have read the Bible. I spent most of my younger years forced to memorize most books (not chapters) of the bible in Hebrew and Greek. I know the Bible better than most I know, thats why I find it sad when people misquote it to make their point. I dont mind if someone calls the Bible bovine feces, just at least know what the Bible says if your going to have that opinion about it.

See, you just quoted alot of scripture that makes my point. Nowhere in the Bible does it say hell was created for humans at all. You missed my point. I didn't say the Bible doesn't say humans are going to hell, but that hell was not created for humans. Please read my post more carefully.

Oh and by the way, your passage is not talking about hell, just FYI.

See, I dont neccessarily disagree with some of the points made here, its just sad that they are so thin. If I can break them apart by simply correcting their false statements, the point holds no merrit.

Distance yourself from that Old Testament God of wrath and you'll come close to embracing Marcionism...and that is heresy.

Most true christians do "distance" themselves from the Old Testament....I mean how many do you know that eat pork or work on sunday?

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

Interesting, you said this...

Most true christians do "distance" themselves from the Old Testament.

And earlier you said this...

If your not are you actually being tolerant? Tolerance is not something that can be chosen by the topic.

Could making a point about tolerance in one post and talking about "true" christians in another be construed as a contradiction?

Why bring this up?

I think that it outlines why church and state need to be strictly separated. People talk about tolerance, but they cannot hide their inherit bias for long. Protecting the rights of the minority religions is important and our constitution demands it.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

See, you just quoted alot of scripture that makes my point. Nowhere in the Bible does it say hell was created for humans at all. You missed my point. I didn't say the Bible doesn't say humans are going to hell, but that hell was not created for humans. Please read my post more carefully.

Oh and by the way, your passage is not talking about hell, just FYI.

Oh, please. It says "Hell". It specifically refers to it. The Church fathers referred to this and other passages in trying to determine whether infants who died before baptism actually fried or not.

You can accept any pop apologetics you like in justifying your stance, I suppose...but stop with the "you don't know how to interpret the Bible" crap. I don't need a priest or an evangelical to interpret it for me.

I've read the damned thing cover to cover, every chapter, every word...with the exception of the Catholic apocrypha. Any dance around the issue of God's damnation of those that disagree with him is a real stretch...and is nothing more than "salad bar Christianity." You're taking the parts you like and leaving the rest.


Regards,


Steve

 

[shesulsa]

Any dance around the issue of God's damnation of those that disagree with him is a real stretch...and is nothing more than "salad bar Christianity." You're taking the parts you like and leaving the rest.

The day has come where I disagree with HHJH - meh ... how sticky.

Steve,

First I have to agree that many, many christians do tend to ignore the Old Testament much to their disadvantage of understanding not only that which they have faith in, but the very nature of religion itself.

In my humble opinion, passages such as the ones you quoted were created to induce a very controlling element in people - fear. We must FEAR God, we must FEAR his wrath, we must FEAR retribution and eternal damnation ... He is a jealous God and His wrath is great, etcetera, etcetera. Why would any being superior to us in every way NEED for us to fear Him? I tend to think such nasty passages were created by man inspired by God rather than the words of the Spirit. The Bible was written in an environment where church and state were one and religion was the tool the state used to control the people as though they were sheep (not much has changed, eh?) so it makes sense for MEN to feel the need for other MEN to fear a supreme being and His retribution - it's cheap law enforcment, really.

And then came the Son to clarify His message and that message was quite clear - treat everyone else the way you yourself would want to be treated, that there is room in heaven for all of God's children once they accept Him into their hearts and feel truly remorseful for being the wretched beings they are.

So ... before I continue, could you please cite New Testament references of Hell? And I think Revations speak mostly of death, but ... please, offer up.

Thanks.

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh, please. It says "Hell". It specifically refers to it.

Steve

However it referres to hell as a place that the fires of his wrath will burn to...

That scripture MENTIONS Hell, but is not about hell, anymore than if I write about my trip to las vegas and state that I stoped off at the airport in Dallas to change planes my writing would be about Dallas.

 

[Makalakumu]

So ... before I continue, could you please cite New Testament references of Hell? And I think Revations speak mostly of death, but ... please, offer up.

But I say unto you, that whosoeer is angry with his brother wihout cause shall be in judgement: and whosoever say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

There is another good one in Paul's letters...

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The day has come where I disagree with HHJH - meh ... how sticky.

Quite allright, SS. The variance of opinion is such in life that among 6 billion of us, total accord isn't possible.

And then came the Son to clarify His message and that message was quite clear - treat everyone else the way you yourself would want to be treated, that there is room in heaven for all of God's children once they accept Him into their hearts and feel truly remorseful for being the wretched beings they are.

Understood...and while the "Golden Rule" is a wonderful code to live by, standard Christian doctrine that was hammered out for about 1,400 years following the crucifixion also calls very specifically for damnation for anyone who either doesn't accept or believe in Jesus, or who pays lip service to the faith but don't live true to its teachings.

Marcion, one of the church fathers, couldn't reconcile the OT and NT, and thus postulated that there were TWO Gods. One of the OT, one of the NT. This was deemed heresy. Scholar Bart Ehrman mentions how many contemporary Christians approach Marcionism unwittingly in refusing to recognize that THEIR God actually committed the atrocities of the Old Testament. He had a good point, and one many dogmatic Christians would agree with. Fundamentalists are often more than happy to own those atrocities.

This is an argument I've had with some of my closest friends who are liberal and Christian. While I agree that the OT laws were written to inspire fear, I can not divorce the OT and NT, just as a Fundamentalist can't. The two are glued to the same binding, and Jesus stated very clearly that he came to affirm the laws of Moses (in Matthew 5:17).

So ... before I continue, could you please cite New Testament references of Hell? And I think Revelations speak mostly of death, but ... please, offer up.

You’re correct on your reference to Revelations, but read on and you'll see some references from the Gospels and Epistles. I don't think Revelation ought to be excluded, so I'll list it as well. I'll list references to Hell, damnation, the lake of fire, and passages referring to "the outer darkness."

Reference the passages themselves for their author, and you'll note that Jesus himself is often the one mentioning damnation:

Revelations 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



Here are references from other New Testament sources:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;



References in the NT about the “Lake of Fire.” Now we see that Hell and the lake of fire are separate, but we can still see they’re both places of unendurable torment, alike in that respect for what we're talking about.



Revelations 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelations 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelations 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelations 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelations 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


From Paul we have a burning in Hell reference, or burning in the lake of fire...hard to tell which...but a sad thing to hear from the man who wrote the homily of love:


1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


Now for damnation:

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

John the Baptist says this of Jesus:

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jesus confirms this several passages later (Matthew 13:30) in a parable.

We find this also in Luke 3:17--

Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Georgia, if I come on strong about this its because I rankle when respected writers such as C.S. Lewis, mainstream evangelicals, and people I know and break bread with all tell me that I am to burn for an eternity for my lack of faith. They tell me that students of mine who are Gay face the same torment for their "sin." They then tell me that their Lord is a God of love.

I can not seem to accept that anyone should burn for an eternity for "original sin," much less the sins of a finite life. Nor, for that matter, loving someone.

There is scripture to back it, though. I for one can't dance around it.


Regards,


Steve

 

[7starmantis]

Interesting, you said this...


And earlier you said this...


Could making a point about tolerance in one post and talking about "true" christians in another be construed as a contradiction?

Why bring this up?

I think that it outlines why church and state need to be strictly separated. People talk about tolerance, but they cannot hide their inherit bias for long. Protecting the rights of the minority religions is important and our constitution demands it.

Tolerance and the observation of a publically understood meaning of a group of people are compatible. The use of a word like "true" christianity isn't showing intolerance but just a understanding of the many different bodies of "christians" You shouldn't take semantics so seriously....By "true" I meant those who follow the teachings of the bible, all of it....thats it.

Dont make the mistake of assuming my bias either, just because I have read the bible through many times in english, hebrew, and greek, doesn't mean you can judge my bias.

Oh, please. It says "Hell". It specifically refers to it. The Church fathers referred to this and other passages in trying to determine whether infants who died before baptism actually fried or not.

So any use of the word hell is refering to "the lake of fire"?
Hell, I didn't know that....I guess when I got in that wreck several years back, my arm actually hurt like the lake of fire.

What fathers of what church?

You can accept any pop apologetics you like in justifying your stance, I suppose...but stop with the "you don't know how to interpret the Bible" crap. I don't need a priest or an evangelical to interpret it for me.

Tell you what, you stop with the "I know your bias and can now put words in your mouth.
See, I didn't say anything about anyone not knowing how to interpret the bible, I dont get into the interpretation argument. I'm niether a priest or an evangelical. But nice try at diverting my true point. (oh, I guess using that term "true" point is a bit intolerant)

I've read the damned thing cover to cover, every chapter, every word...with the exception of the Catholic apocrypha. Any dance around the issue of God's damnation of those that disagree with him is a real stretch...and is nothing more than "salad bar Christianity." You're taking the parts you like and leaving the rest.

Congradulations....many have read the bible through, as I have myself. Again, your attempting to make my argument a dance around the damnation of people...not what I said. To go back to my original statement, my only point is that if your going to argue the bible as bovine feces, at least quote it correctly and in context.

My very point is against people taking a part they like and leaving the rest, your not understanding me. You can't take one scripture quote it as anything, you have to understand the context.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Georgia, if I come on strong about this its because I rankle when respected writers such as C.S. Lewis, mainstream evangelicals, and people I know and break bread with all tell me that I am to burn for an eternity for my lack of faith. They tell me that students of mine who are Gay face the same torment for their "sin." They then tell me that their Lord is a God of love.

I had to respond to this as well. If those people are telling you that they may need to re-read the bible themselves. If the gay student of yours is goign to burn so is the person having sex outside of marriage, or even the person speeding in the car. Those are the ones who think a Christian must be perfect...they forget that no one is perfect and sinning does not make you "unsaved" at least according to their own bible.

7sm

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I had to respond to this as well. If those people are telling you that they may need to re-read the bible themselves. If the gay student of yours is goign to burn so is the person having sex outside of marriage, or even the person speeding in the car. Those are the ones who think a Christian must be perfect...they forget that no one is perfect and sinning does not make you "unsaved" at least according to their own bible.

7sm

I agree that they ought to READ (much less re-read) the Bible in the first place, rather than merely quoting those passages they find appealing...such as the ever popular John 3:16. An evangelical with 25 years experience in the ministry once tried to tell me that John the Baptist was the author of the Gospel of John...even a casual reading of the Gospels pretty much makes it clear that is an impossibility. I was stunned.

These Christians I mentioned don't expect Christians to be perfect...not at all. They're very quick to point out that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That said, they're even quicker to point out another's sin, ignoring the admonitions of Jesus during the Sermon on the Mount.

We could debate the issues of the Bible and the notion of sin to death if we like. Its somewhat OT, and has been hashed out elsewhere.

What church? What fathers? If you're a Christian, your church. I'm talking about Clement of Rome, Eusebius, Polycarp, Athanasius...and all the others who essentially shaped Christianity in its first five hundred years. Perhaps you subcribe to one of those rare heresies they attempted to stamp out?

As for the context of scripture, I provided reference for each passage so that people can read it for themselves. I've had many attempt to provide a "context" for me that was not a context at all, but an interpretation. I can read it for myself as well, and can place the context myself. As for the standard Christian interpretation of scripture, I'm familiar with it as well.

Back to the topic of Gays, 7Star...do they burn or not? Just what happens to the sodomites once they die?



Regards,


Steve

 

[Marginal]

Yes, who are the true Christians?

 

[7starmantis]

What church? What fathers? If you're a Christian, your church. I'm talking about Clement of Rome, Eusebius, Polycarp, Athanasius...and all the others who essentially shaped Christianity in its first five hundred years. Perhaps you subcribe to one of those rare heresies they attempted to stamp out?

Maybe I do, but the term christian doesn't neccessarily include only people who recognize Clement of Rome, Eusebius, or Polycarp as "fathers" of their faith. I dont subscribe to the "shaping christianity" argument anymore than I agree with the "shaping martial arts" argument. Christianity is a group of people who disagree with each other more frequently and adamantly than probably any other group of people. Yet, everyone still tries to lump them together in one box.

As for the context of scripture, I provided reference for each passage so that people can read it for themselves. I've had many attempt to provide a "context" for me that was not a context at all, but an interpretation. I can read it for myself as well, and can place the context myself. As for the standard Christian interpretation of scripture, I'm familiar with it as well.

Refrence is not context. Context is not taken from just one passage either. Most people refer to their interpretation as context, but they are wrong. What I'm talking about is true context and that requires also studying supporting and abosing scriptures. I dont believe there is any one standard interpretation of scripture. On a side note, this would be an interesting debate...been done I know, but still interesting.

Back to the topic of Gays, 7Star...do they burn or not? Just what happens to the sodomites once they die?

Well, if were talking about the bibles view then they burn just as much as someone who has told a lie. Do liers burn? See, according to the bible its not about what you have done in your life, but what you have not done. Aside from wacko interpretation of the bible, it says that anyone; gay, mass murderer, suicide, rape, anything, can be saved. So the question of "Do they burn" is really a question of do they believe, not do they have a sexual prefrence of the same sex.

Thats what the bible says, so I guess if you believe the bible then the answer would be: It Depends.

7sm

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Thats what the bible says, so I guess if you believe the bible then the answer would be: It Depends.

7sm

Man. I haven't seen movement like that since Chris Byrd was at the top of his boxing game.

Thanks for the link, Marginal. There is a simply WONDERFUL Jack Chick commentary that relates to this topic there:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp




Regards,


Steve

 

[7starmantis]

Man. I haven't seen movement like that since Chris Byrd was at the top of his boxing game.

And you just completely missed my point. You took one sentence and ignored the context. My point was that there is no defined answer about "Do gays go to hell". According to the bible it isn't a person's lifestyle that sends them. To answer that question with a yes or no would be to lump into one box or label the entire gay community....I doubt thats a reasonable response. A gay person can go to "heaven" or "hell" according to the bible, so your asking the wrong questions.

Also, I posted quite openly that I dont have an opinion on this topic, twice (this makes three times) I believe.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

What about the sin of thread-jacking?

Maybe this "Hell" subject deserves another thread so this one can return to the gay marriage issue!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

What about the sin of thread-jacking?

Maybe this "Hell" subject deserves another thread so this one can return to the gay marriage issue!

Okay.

Jeff, will you marry me?



Regards,


Steve

 

[arnisador]

Jeff, will you marry me?

If only it were legal, Steve...if only it were legal.

Wouldn't we both be bigamists then too? I hope our wives would get along.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

The arguments for and against alcohol apply to marijuana, but one is legal and the other isn't. I don't see your point. Polygamy is different--that's why we have a different word for it.

Also, I want to know how a matter of who you have sex with becomes a matter of a minority status.[/QUOTE]It doesn't. As you say, it's an activity; many otherwise heterosexual men do it in prison, for example.

But sexual orientation is largely inborn, or at least set at a very young age, and that's the minority status point.[/QUOTE]

You're right, the same arguments do apply. However, don't think that these arguments won't be brought up to justify polygamy. They will be, and in this era, will probably become legal. Just as marijuana will probably shortly be legallized, as it somewhat is in some states (ie. medical marijuana).

If you want to consider that man is simply an animal, then there is no other species on earth that has homosexual orientation. That is not to say that there aren't male that have sex with other male in interspecies relationships. However, there is no other animal group that has EXCLUSIVELLY homosexual sex. So I question the fact that it is an inborn train among humans.