To suwariwaza or not to suwariwaza

[Yari]

What's your "edge" on suwariwaza (knee walking).?

Is this an absolite traingin form or is it still relevant? And if it is, were is the relavance?

/Yari

 

[MisterMike]

We use it fairly often. The idea being you should be able to move as well on your knees as you can on your feet and still perform good Aiki.

The practice of kneewalking, or shiko is just that, a practice or excercise.

Actually performing techniques against another seated person or standing is the suwariwaza, or hanmi-handachi. This type of practice forces you to not rely on your longer stride or strength of standing on your legs, but more on using your center and good tai sabaki.

In practicality, sure, you could be confronted while sitting in a chair...

Do you think it should be omitted from Aiki practice?

 

[theletch1]

Most definetly NOT something that should be deleted from aikido training. Training from seiza really lets you feel what a technique is when you are truly "earthed". It does, indeed, force you to focus on the technique for the techniques' sake and not on using tai sabaki or body mass to force a technique. I realize some may believe that this argument could be likened to kata argument of the hard styles. As for me, I believe it has a good bit of use left in it.

 

[Paul B]

Say it with me,now..."It's all in the hips,It's all in the hips."

Suwari waza practice isolates the hips,which is why it makes for such a dynamic exercise who's benefits are clearly seen when doing regular ol' stand-up.

Being forced to "move from the center" and "keep one point"...Who is wanting to get rid of this? Insanity I say!

 

[Aikikitty]

Yeah, we practice suwari waza and hamni handachi (sp?) sometimes. It makes my knees and toes (especially) sore, but I think it's important to learn how to move like that. Relavance--for when you're down pinning someone and their buddy comes up to attack you. There are other reasons, but I'm too tired to think of them right now.

Robyn :asian:

 

[Yari]

.....

Do you think it should be omitted from Aiki practice?

No.

I do agree with all your comments, since I think it's important to be able to move the "aiki" way with your legs incapicitated (sp?).

But I also think it builds character. It's hard to move on the knees; slow movements, your the underdog (hamni handachi). There are areas you have to win over yourself to perform. But if you can then you've added some good value to your Budo.


/Yari

 

[Yari]

....... Relavance--for when you're down pinning someone and their buddy comes up to attack you. There are other reasons, but I'm too tired to think of them right now.

Robyn :asian:

Just got me thinking ..... defence against a kick while in surwariwaza......

Anybody tried that?

/Yari

 

[Paul B]

It's hard to move on the knees; slow movements

I would suggest to go look at some videos by Ikeda Sensei. His Shikko is unbeliveable...he moves better and does technique faster in suwariwaza than a lot of practitioners can do while standing. Good stuff. If you ever get a chance to see Saotome Shihan in action it's the same story with him.

Harder to learn,yes...but nobody has to go slow once they've learned it.

I've done defenses against kicks while sitting,but in Hapkido. I imagine that somewhere,someone has introduced this aspect into their Aikido practice as well.

 

[Yari]

Yeah, I've seen a short video of Ikeada sensei doing suwariwaza, and was very impressed.

I'd love to work with him.

Never seen Saotome Shihan, but heard a lot of good stuff. I'd like to practice under him too.

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

Just got me thinking ..... defence against a kick while in surwariwaza......

Anybody tried that?

/Yari

I haven't tried a defense against a kick with an aikido technique from seiza but I still remember at least one from my kenpo days that was specifically designed for just such a situation.

Moving on your knees is slow at first but the more you do it the faster you get at it. Once you get used to the sequence of movement...knee up, pivot, knee down and so on, it gets a lot easier.

 

[AikidoCal]

Just got me thinking ..... defence against a kick while in surwariwaza......

Anybody tried that?

/Yari

Good point, I can think of allot of things in Aikido that is outdated or not relevant to today in terms of practicality. But they have other purposes. If you look at Aikido as a whole much of Aikido in terms of techniques and exercises are not practical into days world in relation to self-defense. But that is why it is called an art.

Very few Aikido techniques for example are applicable and don't meet the needs of today's self-defense. Aikido techniques and exercises are antiquated. Who carries a sword into days world. Some people carry a bat but a bat isn't employed liked a sword or a jo. This isn't to say that there are some techniques that can be used today. I know many LEOs use Aikido. And to defend yourself in today's world a few techniques will do.

The point here is that much of what we do in Aikido maybe antiquated and not applicable like suwariwaza but if ignored then there will be a hole created in a persons technique that will effect how a persons handles themselves on the mat and on the street.

I feel it is very important to practice Aikido as intended, as designed, and not omit anything. Because if you do you miss a principle or lesson that can be applied to anything you do. That is it will not make a difference if a person swings a sword, or a chef's knife, or a jo, or a bat, or nothing at all. Because the principle is there to draw on. Once the principles are learned there is then no reason to use forms. A person can be formless, spontaneous and unrestricted, in the void.

 

[AikidoCal]

The "Void" is an old term used to explain something we, today, explain differently. I have a hunch it was also a code word. Coded words where used within the Samurai culture, just as some use slang. Of course, it has relevance to Zen but essentially you get to a point in your training that you are free from convention and form in your technique. You know the principles so well and they are inately ingained that you don't think about it when you do it. This is the same things like being in the zone. Another way of putting it is like walking, driving, riding a bicycle you get so good at it and do it so much your mind is no longer fixed on driving or walking, this frees you to talk on the cell phone and drive for example. Or when a well trained musician abandons the preset scales and patterns first learned to make music and improvises.


I just didn't want to give the impression I liked fluffy things, rainbows, and VW bugs. That costume is often associated with Aikidokas, sometimes well deserving of some, but not me.

 

[Yari]

Good point, I can think of allot of things in Aikido that is outdated or not relevant to today in terms of practicality. But they have other purposes. If you look at Aikido as a whole much of Aikido in terms of techniques and exercises are not practical into days world in relation to self-defense. But that is why it is called an art. ......

So if I understand this correctly, your also saying that Aikido isn't a "whole" style; a style that is all round, and works no matter what kind of situation were talking about (selfdefence or personal growth....)

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

So if I understand this correctly, your also saying that Aikido isn't a "whole" style; a style that is all round, and works no matter what kind of situation were talking about (selfdefence or personal growth....)

/Yari

Yari, you know how much I love my aikido but I'd have to say that if that's what's he's saying then I agree with him. There are several areas of combat that are not well covered by aikido that are much better handled by other arts. Ground fighting, striking, weapons are all things which are not dealt well with by aikido practice. From a personal growth point of view I don't see where aikido is lacking anything. From a physical defense point of view, well, maybe there's a reason so many of us aikido-ka have studied other arts or dabble in other arts presently.

 

[AikidoCal]

So if I understand this correctly, your also saying that Aikido isn't a "whole" style; a style that is all round, and works no matter what kind of situation were talking about (selfdefence or personal growth....)

/Yari

What I am saying is some people may see it that way because Aikido technically isn't update for today's modern world. That is there are things like suwariwaza. That social practice went out with the samurai. I would be shocked if that custom is still practiced in Japan households. Just like someone said it is hard to kick from suwariwaza. I agree, though suwariwaza has value to Aikido, even though it isn't a common practice anymore. There are many things like suwariwaza in Aikido that are not in use or practical in society. The point is that the value of these things are in principle. You should be studying principles or mechanics and not memorizing kata without the understanding kata is a means to learn mechanics and principles behind the technique. That in its self is timeless.

 

[Kizaru]

allot of things in Aikido that is outdated or not relevant to today in terms of practicality..... Some people carry a bat but a bat isn't employed liked a sword or a jo.

Hi, I've been happily enjoying this thread for the past week and I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I've been living in Japan for the past 4 or 5 years, and train in the Bujinkan, as well as at another dojo. My girlfriend has been practicing Aikido for the past 8 years and we've discussed some of the things that have been brought up in this thread.

As far as suwariwaza being "outdated" or irrelevant, we feel that those skills may be more relevant in Japan than in the West. People still sit in seiza here, and not just in the dojo or at a temple. When my girlfriend and I go to her uncle's house for dinner, we usually sit on straw mats on the floor. When I go out to izakaya (Japanese pub) with my friends, we either sit on stools at the bar or, at low tables where we sit cross legged or in seiza. In our apartment, we only have one chair (which is usually piled with clothes) so we usually sit on the floor when we eat...so here in Japan it would seem that suwariwaza exercises are still relevant.

As far as the jo goes, policemen still carry them, and they do happen to be about broomstick length. As for the sword, I'm not saying that people go around have swordfights here these days, but the biomechanics expressed in the taijutsu of aikido (as well as the Bujinkan) have a foundation in the old sword arts.

As far as my experience with suwarigata in the Bujinkan and working with some suwariwaza from aikido, I would say that they helped me get a better feel for using gravity, using my hips and were a helpful transition for moving into ground techniques and controls.

Well, my lunchbreak is over...

Richard Maloof

 

[Yari]

I'd agree. I love my Aikido, and I "know" it's faults. Which makes it even better.

But what I'm trying to point out is the mind set "my aikido fits everthing" therefor it's the best art.... hmmmmmmmm.

But i'm not trying to flame it, just pocking to it since I find it interesting to see poeples idea's of what there stating.

/Yari

 

[AikidoCal]

Yari, your right, Aikido has its faults and so does everything else, not knowing this will be a problem. Aikido isn't the best art in the world. Which art is?

Aikido is based on Daito ryu technically. Daito ryu was a combatitive that developed around the sword and other weapons. In both arts you train when the tori grabs the wrist most of the time and is the core attack, why? Well because in it implied the tori is an attacker who wants to stop you from grabbing your sword or other weapons, and/or will put a move on you depending on the attackers style to defeat you.

Sure the wrist grab expands to other areas like the lapel, sleeve or collar. Not too many of the Aikido waza ( I am refering about O'Sensei's Aikido) really are designed in mind for the modern day attacker, i.e. car jackers, or clerks standing behind a counter at gun point.

I am not faulting Aikido or Daito ryu here, the point is understanding what you are doing, and where it comes from before you throw the baby out with the bath water.

LEO's and such use Aikido very effectively, as well as there thousands of testimonials to the effectiveness of Aikido in defending oneself. I was on a trip in Mexico as a tourist I was of course a target and knew it. I had this guy try and assault me as he walked up from behind me. Being aware this guy was following me and not being in my Mother country I had to becareful not to make a scene in preventing an attack. God knows I didn't want to end up in a Mexican jail. Without droning into details of what I did, Aikido worked beautifully. It looked like an accident and the attacker thought he had an accident. The Aikido resolve of the situation never drew any unwanted attention, and thwarted the attacker's attempt to steal off my person. That is because I value Aikido as it was intended and I don't change it.

I don't throw anything out, nor do I add to it from outside arts. That is because principles and mechanics are the key, as they are universal. The fault lays in being ignorant of the principles and mechanics as well as not refining them.

Kizaru, I see your point. I realize the Japanese still do things such as the cops carry jos and seiza is till used at the home. I don't want to sound rude. What I was saying is we live in a modern world now. I don't see myself, if in Japan, taking on a cop with a jo or a gun. Or a cop period. Or being attacked while eating dinner sitting is seiza either. It is a matter of practicality, and the most evident and current social practices employed. People in Japan probably at work either stand or sit. I am not sure in a meeting the bosses chair is higher then all the employe chairs. Or even if they sit in seiza at all, muchless walking on their knees as not to raise themselves at or above the boss's level. I wouldn't be surprised if the practice of walking on the knees has faded away in Japanese society. I would hedge my bet that if you did walk on your knees in some instance outside the home you would get odd looks. Living in Japan you may take a train home or a car, your siting in a western style and not in seiza. At work do people in Japan sit in seiza, or do they sit in a chair? It has my understanding that many Japanese can't sit in seiza very long like they use too .i.e when at a funeral. Say at the most the average male 10-20 mins, I am sure woman longer, as per tradition are required when sitting, to always be in seiza. Most Japanese are hard pressed to be in it for an hour. Unless you have kept up with seiza. If you don't keep up with your seiza, you start from ground zero. It is a skill in some sense, and requires regular practice and attention.

Modern society pretty much doesn' t allow for seiza. Basically, the Japanese sit less in seiza then the ever did in today's world. I bet in 20 years or so seiza will be done only by the older generations at home. Despite all the value seiza has to the martial arts and other arts. That is what I was saying.