To grab or not to grab...

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yes, that's precisely my intent with this thread. To what extent do you find it acceptable to grab/hook on to a limb headed your way? Something I heard a lot about during my Japan visit was the general notion of not grabbing for something too eagerly, but instead to "bring it to you". I can see the general principles for this in not giving your opponent too much information to work with, but what really interests me is the tendency among people who say this a lot to immediately forget about it as soon as something doesn't go as they'd planned. Comments?

 

[Shogun]

In my opinion, I am opposed to actually reaching out and grabbing limbs. but, if the limb is right in front of me, I'll take it.

I can see the general principles for this in not giving your opponent too much information to work with, but what really interests me is the tendency among people who say this a lot to immediately forget about it as soon as something doesn't go as they'd planned. Comments?

I agree that seizing a limb gives your attacker plenty to work with. it lets the know approximately where you are. Royce Gracie said something like "grab my gi and I know where your hands are". very simple, yet revealing sentence. If you grab someone, they don't have to worry about where your hands are gonna be, since they are occupied. this works on all levels from street fights to competition.

 

[twayman]

I’m not too opposed to reaching and grabbing, as long as the follow up is thought out. Being grabbed can be a good way to distract (they focus on the grab) and create an opening. Grabs can be tricky though, reach to far and it is easy to be off balanced. As a general rule though… If a limb comes into range grab it, break it and send it back.

 

[Cryozombie]

Im learning, more and more, as I continue training, that being grabby tends to change the fight and provide some advantage to your opponent, as opposed to using light touch and not letting him feel your intentions until it is too late...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

How do you choke someone or apply kansetsu waza with him on the ground while adhering to this principle?

 

[Shogun]

Gracie Jiu Jitsu has a basic technique when someone is in your guard in which you move your arm, faking a cross-collar choke. when the opponent goes to stop the second arm, they place their hand and arm locked out ready to be armbarred.

 

[Kizaru]

How do you choke someone or apply kansetsu waza with him on the ground while adhering to this principle?

Same as when you're doing muto dori; you don't reach in with your fingers, you place the palm of your hand on the tsuka or area of the body you need to control, then you close your hand. For some reason, when we reach in with the palm instead of the fingertips, we have less of a chance of over extending ourselves or fumbling.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Same as when you're doing muto dori; you don't reach in with your fingers, you place the palm of your hand on the tsuka or area of the body you need to control, then you close your hand.

I don't think I was ever "taught" to do so, but for some reason it always came natural to me not to grab firmly with all of my fingers, but rather "hooking" with only my middle finger, ring finger and thumb touching the limb. Suppose I were to train with someone who would say that even what you're suggesting was overkill?

 

[Cryozombie]

How do you choke someone or apply kansetsu waza with him on the ground while adhering to this principle?

Well, hopefully by the time you are applying those techniques its to the point I mentioned where it is already too late for that "grab" to benefit him.

 

[Tengu6]

Something to think about is when someone grabs..........who has who?

If you do grab or "take"...........do it with kamae and not merely the hands.

My opinion.

Markk Bush

 

[Shogun]

I think of Grabbing with the whole arm, rather than with the finger. that way, if Uke pulls back slightly, I still have good posture, and like Kizaru said, not fumbling. fumbles never win the game.

 

[arnisador]

Grabbing with the whole arm sounds good...but, what does it mean? You bend at the elbow so you can maintain your grip?

 

[Don Roley]

I don't think I was ever "taught" to do so, but for some reason it always came natural to me not to grab firmly with all of my fingers, but rather "hooking" with only my middle finger, ring finger and thumb touching the limb. Suppose I were to train with someone who would say that even what you're suggesting was overkill?

Are you leading with your palm? If you have to grab, that is best. If you
happen to them hook with your fingers, great!

I was working out with shun-u today. Most times you would like to let the blow come in before taking control of it. But in the case of this kata, you need to debana o kujiku. Crud! I can't think in English right now. Uh... 'thwart from the outset'????

So...while I would like to wait 'till he sends something where I can deal with it... as we say on the Animal List....'it depends'.

 

[Kizaru]

Suppose I were to train with someone who would say that even what you're suggesting was overkill?

I would say 2 things here;

1) I am completely confident in what my teachers are transmitting to me here in Japan as well as my own experiences.

2) Confirm it for yourself. Try reaching with your fingers. Try placing the palm. Try doing too much. Try doing too little. Find out how much you really need.

 

[Don Roley]

1) I am completely confident in what my teachers are transmitting to me here in Japan as well as my own experiences.

Just as an aside.

I was standing right next to Kizaru today when his teacher re-emphisized this point. I don't think it is fair to beat someone over the head with 'my teacher said this' and drop a name of a famous teacher. But I do think it is fair to point out that Kizaru's teacher is quite willing and able to demonstrate why he says what he does. I think that it would be best if people could put off screaming at each other and go to Kizaru's teacher for a demonstration. I know Nimravus has been to Japan and so it is possible that he will be here again. I hope he can make a note of this to ask when he gets a chance.

This is not something that can be easily explained or debated with words. Seeing is believing.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Sorry people. What made me create this thread was my recent training experience with a guy with crappy basic skills who, as I've come to realize, more or less wanted me to get jerked off balance after punching without him affecting me. It's a bit complicated to explain but in short I can say that the technique we were doing required for both uke and tori to be in motion from the beginning to the end, and I don't think we really both trained with that in mind.