Timing, or speed, or both?

Kung Fu Wang

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This morning, I tried to make my tea. My teacup fell off the kitchen counter, before the teacup hit on the ground, I caught it with my hand.

Some people may say that speed training is not important, and timing is everything.

Is that "timing", or "speed", or both? If my hand could not move fast enough, even if I may have good timing, could I catch that falling teacup?

If you do slow jogging all your life, can you one day suddenly be able to spring 100 meters within 8 second?

What's your opinion on this?
 

isshinryuronin

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This morning, I tried to make my tea. My teacup fell off the kitchen counter, before the teacup hit on the ground, I caught it with my hand.

Some people may say that speed training is not important, and timing is everything.

Is that "timing", or "speed", or both? If my hand could not move fast enough, even if I may have good timing, could I catch that falling teacup?

If you do slow jogging all your life, can you one day suddenly be able to spring 100 meters within 8 second?

What's your my nopinion on this?
I have experienced the same kind of thing a number of times, sometimes surprising myself with my ninja-like skills. No doubt, my karate training is largely responsible - I have no natural ability in speed or reflexes. I don't think timing is in play here. Timing is a learned, conscious skill. Catching a falling cup is more like an automatic reaction, bypassing the decision- making process. This reaction is developed by much repetition and practice of responding quickly to a stimulus. Speed training on a bag or even air can help, but better is reacting to quick moving and unexpected stimuli such as a punch, so sparring is great to develop such skills.

As far as a lifetime slow jogger being able to set a world record in the 100m, or even sprint at all, is not realistic. Of course, physical ability has a large part to play, but there is a big mental component to it as well. Being habituated to moving slowly, the mind will think it is unable to move quickly. I know from personal experience. There is a wall one must break thru to change that way of thinking. Most old people move like they're old because they see themselves as old. I'm old, but I think I'm young. This helps me do thing few old people can do.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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As far as a lifetime slow jogger being able to set a world record in the 100m, or even sprint at all, is not realistic.
Some Taiji people may believe that they do slow training all their life, in street fight, they can suddenly fight with lighting speed.

I don't mind slow training. But to train slow "only" is a bad idea.

This is the only Taiji video I can find that has fast move. Some people may say it's not Taiji because it doesn't move slow.

 
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isshinryuronin

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Some Taiji people may believe that they do slow training all their life, in street fight, they can suddenly fight with lighting speed.
For the reasons I stated in my post, I find this very hard to believe. I know from personal experience that after a long layoff from high-speed sparring and practice, reaction time and speed deteriorate. You fight the way you train.
 

JowGaWolf

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I'm going to say that both are important, but Timing is king. Even with speed, you still need to have timing.

Speed = I wait for the punch then react to beat the punch
Timing = I plan for the punch, and I move before the punch so that my defense will be there. My opponent can be faster than me, but good timing can help me overcome that speed.

I can be faster than my opponent but if I'm too fast then my back fist will past his punch. If I'm too slow then my backfist won't reach his punch. Regardless of speed I still cannot accomplish the strike without good timing.



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Good timing doesn't mean going slow. Good timing is the process in which awareness and speed is used effectively to accomplish a goal.
The only thing I can think of when speed is king is brain processing. How fast your brain processes what's going on is king.

@5:10. Watch the catcher's gloves. He's timing the pitch. It closes even though the batter hits it. He's not trying to catch it at the last minute.

The faster the brain can process the information the sooner the person can time the action. The sooner I can identify an incoming punch the sooner I can time the action.

If we want to speed up or to increase our speed, then it makes sense not to divide the brain's processing power by overloading it with too much thought or too many emotions.
 

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That question got me to thinking about which or what on is most essential. I cannot give a definitive answer, but I would think perhaps both are equal.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Timing - your ability to read. You may have ability to read in slow speed. It doesn't mean that you will have ability to read in fast speed.

Speed - your ability to react. You may have ability to react in slow speed. It doesn't mean that you will have ability to react in fast speed.
 

marvin8

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Good timing is the process in which awareness and speed is used effectively to accomplish a goal.
Timing - your ability to read. You may have ability to read in slow speed. It doesn't mean that you will have ability to read in fast speed.
Timing skill does not rely on strength or speed.

marvin8 said:
Timing is the skill of executing a move at the right time. What is the right time? Its the time at which the move can be the most effective.

Some moves work without timing, providing you have a strength advantage or leverage, or both. If your opponent is standing square on his feet, poised and ready with good balance, you may be able to lift him and throw him anyway if you are much stronger. No timing involved. You will however spend a lot of energy, and your chances of getting countered are very high, especially if your opponent is skilled.

Whenever you do a move, you want to think about the right time to do it. Figure out the right timing.

The proper timing requires the following conditions to be true:

1. Your opponent moves into the (weak) position you anticipated, the way you anticipated;
2. You are in the right place to do the technique;
3. Your position allows you to perform the technique; and

4. You know how to perform the technique.

If these 4 conditions above are met, you can execute the technique with good timing.

#4 is your technical skill.

#1-3 have to do with predicting the future: You need to know where your opponent is going to be ahead of time, so you can put yourself in the right spot and position yourself in such a way that when the opponent gets into the weak position, you are ready to attack.

Some people think of timing in terms of fast reaction time: you see a weakness and you attack it right away before your opponent gets a chance to make himself secure.

This is a shortsighted approach and will only work if the opponent remains in a weak position for a long time. It happens, especially in groundwork where people can spend several seconds or even minutes in weak positions because they dont realize they are exposed. Standing, timing is far more difficult to achieve as people, even beginners, move and constantly shift their balance.

Fast reaction times will only do so much. To have good timing, you need to predict your opponents position and movement several seconds in advance.

There are ways to predict the future:

1. Direct observation;
2. patterns; and
3. Causation

The same principles apply to grappling. When you see/feel your opponent lifting his back leg, you know that in less than a second, all his weight will be on his front leg. You also know that his back leg will most likely be coming forward and about half a second later his weight will shift onto it.

These are opportunities to apply your techniques with timing. It is however extremely difficult to do on direct observation due to the speed involved. Half a second is very short if you need to position yourself and attack. To have more time to prepare, you can look for patterns in your opponents movement. If you can figure out what he is going to do a few seconds ahead of time, it will be much easier to attack with proper timing.

However, your opponent will react to your movement and if you are familiar with Sci-Fi B-movies, you know that your actions can change the future. ;) If your opponent notices you are getting ready for a technique, he will avoid it, or worse, counter it.

Attacking based on pure observation is hard, you must be fast and your technique must be very good. Fortunately, there is an alternative.

Causation.

You make your opponent behave in the way you need to execute your technique. This is what we usually call a set-up.


The classic example is pushing your opponent. Most opponents will push back. You can prepare yourself to take advantage of that reaction so that when your opponent pushes back, you are ready to throw him forward.

However, not all opponents will react the same way. Some might just step back, or to the side, etc. To increase your success rate, you can try it a few times and observe how the opponent reacts. Once you know what the opponent will do, you can then attack accordingly.

Either way, the window of opportunity is seldom open for very long, so your ability to perform the technique must be very high to take advantage of it.

Timing, attacking at the right time, is the key to effortless technique. It is a major factor in good grappling.
 

JowGaWolf

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Timing skill does not rely on strength or speed.
Timing is not void of speed.. The faster an attack comes in the less time you'll have to react to it. You do not necessarily need to be faster than the attack if you can see the attack come before it starts it's forward movement. But even though that is true. I cannot use the timing I would use for avoiding a slow-motion punch as a way to avoid a fast punch. Timing also includes awareness. The sooner you are aware that a punch is coming towards you, the more time you'll have to get out of the way of that punch. Timing requires speed. The sooner you know about it, the less speed you'll need.

This is why tell-tale signs are bad to have. If I blink 2 times before throwing my left hook to the body. Then you now have more time to process my punch long before I actually punch. If I don't have a tell-tale sign and I punch very fast, then you have less time to process the attack and less time to figure what to do with.

Juggle 3 balloons in the air then try to juggle 3 tennis balls in the aie. You will easily see that speed is involved.
If I throw a jab every ten seconds, then you will discover that you do not have to move as fast to get out of the way. Nor do you have to process the jab as quickly. Then throw a jab every .5 seconds and use the same speed. Timing is not void of speed. Speed plays a n important part.

The sooner you can process the more time you'll have to react.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Timing is not void of speed.. The faster an attack comes in the less time you'll have to react to it. You do not necessarily need to be faster than the attack if you can see the attack come before it starts it's forward movement. But even though that is true. I cannot use the timing I would use for avoiding a slow-motion punch as a way to avoid a fast punch. Timing also includes awareness. The sooner you are aware that a punch is coming towards you, the more time you'll have to get out of the way of that punch. Timing requires speed. The sooner you know about it, the less speed you'll need.

This is why tell-tale signs are bad to have. If I blink 2 times before throwing my left hook to the body. Then you now have more time to process my punch long before I actually punch. If I don't have a tell-tale sign and I punch very fast, then you have less time to process the attack and less time to figure what to do with.

Juggle 3 balloons in the air then try to juggle 3 tennis balls in the aie. You will easily see that speed is involved.
If I throw a jab every ten seconds, then you will discover that you do not have to move as fast to get out of the way. Nor do you have to process the jab as quickly. Then throw a jab every .5 seconds and use the same speed. Timing is not void of speed. Speed plays a n important part.

The sooner you can process the more time you'll have to react.
This picture is a good representation of timing It shows me reacting to a punch before the punch comes. This means my reaction speed does not need to be faster than the punch as my movement started before the punch. In short I have a head start for dealing with the incoming jab. If I started this motion at the same that he punched then I may or may not have to be faster than the punch depending on the distance his punch must trivael to hit my face and the distance my hand must travel to make contact with the punch.

Long guard is also a good timing hack. With long guard I don't need to be faster than the punching arm. As my arm is closer to the punch than the punch is to my face. The only real issue I have is accuracy. If I miss my mark. For example, moving my arm with the correct timing but in the wrong direction. Parrying inside instead of outward block. The faster my sparring partner punches the faster I'll need to be.
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Kung Fu Wang

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Timing skill does not rely on speed.
Have you ever tried to jump on a moving train? The slower the train moves, the easier you can jump on. The faster the train moves, the harder you can jump on.

You may be able to catch an arrow. It's difficult to catch a bullet. Because bullet is fast.

How can you react to an attack if you can't even see it coming?
 
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marvin8

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Timing is not void of speed.. The faster an attack comes in the less time you'll have to react to it. You do not necessarily need to be faster than the attack if you can see the attack come before it starts it's forward movement. But even though that is true. I cannot use the timing I would use for avoiding a slow-motion punch as a way to avoid a fast punch. Timing also includes awareness. The sooner you are aware that a punch is coming towards you, the more time you'll have to get out of the way of that punch. Timing requires speed. The sooner you know about it, the less speed you'll need.
Timing is a skill. Speed and strength are attributes.

If I don't have a tell-tale sign and I punch very fast, then you have less time to process the attack and less time to figure what to do with...

Then throw a jab every .5 seconds and use the same speed. Timing is not void of speed. Speed plays a n important part.
How can you react to an attack if you can't even see it coming?
You have more time to react to a punch by...

1. positioning yourself at an angle.
2. controlling the distance by moving back and laterally (pull).
3. controlling the space,
4. timing and intercepting your opponent's movement.
5. kicking.
6. wrestling.

(Not by trying to grab and pull their lead hand.)

 

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