Throws

[mhouse]

Good Afternoon,

My name is Mark, I'm new to this forum (in fact this is my first posting on any of the MartialTalk forums).

I've been studying Shaolin Kempo Chi Sao for 6 years in Massachusetts.

I have a couple of questions about throws and throwing techniques. (i.e. Hip throws and shoulder throws.)

1. From a practice perspective, do you have a set series of techniques that integrate a throw. If so, would you mind sharing it?

2. From a teaching perspective, when do you start teaching throws to your students? How do you go about teaching them to safely 'be thrown'? How do you train them on throwing another student?

Thank you,
Mark

 

[MisterMike]

Hey, welcome aboard.

I have not seen much in the way of hip and shoulder throws in Parker Kenpo, but from my Judo days, you basically learn hip throws first, then shoulder. The first being easier to ukemi from. I'd say a good understanding of breakfalls would be necessary before being thrown.

Parker Kenpo deals more with Takedowns, which do not necessitate a throw.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ayup. Include ukemi-waza drills in each warm-up, paricularly the ones that enable you to slap out or roll out from the throws that will be practiced on that particular day.

 

[Rainman]

Hey, welcome aboard.

I have not seen much in the way of hip and shoulder throws in Parker Kenpo, but from my Judo days, you basically learn hip throws first, then shoulder. The first being easier to ukemi from. I'd say a good understanding of breakfalls would be necessary before being thrown.

Parker Kenpo deals more with Takedowns, which do not necessitate a throw.

There are definitely throws, takedowns, strikedowns and sweeps. Some of the places these movements are containted in are: lock sets, extensions, and forms. True, some throws are not there such as a double legged split throw but that is also a comprimising throw for street use. Basically a shoulder throw where you land on top of the opponent... that means you are on the ground and your arms may still be being used for a choke or lock. There are head throws, wrist throws and others that leave you on your feet and able defend against 2 or more and that is partially what must always be kept in mind for the street. One on one is less important if you over expose your back to the folks watching.

 

[MisterMike]

I agree, but as to the topic of throws, there are only a handful. I have also seen the head throw. This is not to say that applications of the motion of Kenpo as defined in the system I learned cannot be transformed into throws, but in general it is not taught that way. The Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand just didn't focus as much on it as Aiki Jutsu, Ju Jutsu, etc.

As for what is practical on the street, well, I can trust what has been developed and used in war. One type of throw that may not be street applicable to someone should not rule out an art's overall effectiveness. Poor judgement or choice of technique on the street does not invalidate an art either.

 

[loki09789]

As for what is practical on the street, well, I can trust what has been developed and used in war. One type of throw that may not be street applicable to someone should not rule out an art's overall effectiveness. Poor judgement or choice of technique on the street does not invalidate an art either.

Agreed MM, but I would say that (and I know you do from reading other posts) examining the military and combatives based systems as a source really needs to be a must. Remember that, if the system was/is coming from a military tradition, the health and fitness component of the practioner becomes an issue. If you are training at 55, reasonably fit and in a good wt. range, you are still more at risk of injury or technique failure trying to force out a technique that was designed for someone who has been training/conditioning for combat and is in FAR better shape that you at 55 (even in average shape). Personalization, modification of the techniques has to be considered.

Age, health, fitness, goals, techincal proficiency/skill, gender, mental make up.... all have to come into play in developing a personalized yet effective fighting set from the overall style or system.

 

[Rainman]

I agree, but as to the topic of throws, there are only a handful. I have also seen the head throw. This is not to say that applications of the motion of Kenpo as defined in the system I learned cannot be transformed into throws, but in general it is not taught that way. The Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand just didn't focus as much on it as Aiki Jutsu, Ju Jutsu, etc.

As for what is practical on the street, well, I can trust what has been developed and used in war. One type of throw that may not be street applicable to someone should not rule out an art's overall effectiveness. Poor judgement or choice of technique on the street does not invalidate an art either.

Sure it does. It is contained within contact manipulation the fourth range. A sub cat in controlled manipulaltion. Manipulation is the header of lock, choke, hug, or hold. I don't know what to tell you but try to not place absolutes. Absolutes are absolutely incorrect. In the version I study most of the teks have manipulations and finishing movements, they are taught that way. It is much better to work inside out, than outiside in.... Mainly because too much time is spent trying to get in without getting blasted from long range. This is a mistake. That is why the vast majority of karate people get hung out to dry by grapplers. They don't waste a bunch of time trying to fight long range. What does make AK unique is how striking is mixed with contact manipulation.

What is not practical on the street is a throw such as a double split legged throw. Why? Your back is exposed and your hands are tied up while you are ending up in a side mount... On the ground. Primed to get kicked in the head, back, or ribs. Is it a great sporting movement... In my opinion, a very hard throw to defend against especially if the guy doing it is sneaky and knows how to position himself for the movement-

We are not talking invalidation- that is the work of an incompetant teacher not a martial art. Notice I said art and not martial sport. Different goals for each. Can you incorporate parts of each... or course as long as the rules for doing so are known.

 

[Rainman]

Agreed MM, but I would say that (and I know you do from reading other posts) examining the military and combatives based systems as a source really needs to be a must. Remember that, if the system was/is coming from a military tradition, the health and fitness component of the practioner becomes an issue. If you are training at 55, reasonably fit and in a good wt. range, you are still more at risk of injury or technique failure trying to force out a technique that was designed for someone who has been training/conditioning for combat and is in FAR better shape that you at 55 (even in average shape). Personalization, modification of the techniques has to be considered.

Age, health, fitness, goals, techincal proficiency/skill, gender, mental make up.... all have to come into play in developing a personalized yet effective fighting set from the overall style or system.

I disagree. Execution is always the issure. Failure to do so leads to what if, personalization and modification. Personalization really has to do with the concepts being using during the movements. At one point someone will know which combination of movements go particularly well with a constant set of concepts and universal laws in a specific order. And that also relates to environment... are you gonna box a would be attacker or are you going to use the entire environment to your advantage?

 

[Brother John]

There are definitely throws, takedowns, strikedowns and sweeps. Some of the places these movements are containted in are: lock sets, extensions, and forms.

I was going over and over form I, phases 1-4, with one of my students and he said "Hey, this move right here... that could be a throw."
I just smiled and told him I was proud of his observation...and to look for more.
Problem with so many of these 'grappling' lessons in Kenpo is that
SURE the grappling is in there...but you've got to SEARCHED diligently for ( like these ) and then translated (per-say). Not really a 'gripe', just an observation. It's in there, but it's not the OVERT training that we engage in.
For instance, Jujutsu. Their grappling IS overt, so much so that it's pretty much all they are known for.
For us it's the striking that is OVERT.

DISCLAIMER: In the AKKI, there are a lot of grappling techniques and even drills now that are done on the ground. As the newest techniques are coming out we are finding many more joint locks, CHOKES (emphasis!! ) throws and such...and there aint no interpretation...it's in the manual descriptions and all. It's good stuff. In general though, it doesn't come until the higher belts (generally starting at Blue). Not a complaint...again....observation.

Your Brother
John

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I was going over and over form I, phases 1-4, with one of my students and he said "Hey, this move right here... that could be a throw."
I just smiled and told him I was proud of his observation...and to look for more.
Problem with so many of these 'grappling' lessons in Kenpo is that
SURE the grappling is in there...but you've got to SEARCHED diligently for ( like these ) and then translated (per-say). Not really a 'gripe', just an observation. It's in there, but it's not the OVERT training that we engage in.
For instance, Jujutsu. Their grappling IS overt, so much so that it's pretty much all they are known for.
For us it's the striking that is OVERT.

DISCLAIMER: In the AKKI, there are a lot of grappling techniques and even drills now that are done on the ground. As the newest techniques are coming out we are finding many more joint locks, CHOKES (emphasis!! ) throws and such...and there aint no interpretation...it's in the manual descriptions and all. It's good stuff. In general though, it doesn't come until the higher belts (generally starting at Blue). Not a complaint...again....observation.

Your Brother
John

Dave German was a Parker BB who added throws, chokes, and arm-bars to the ends of techniques, like the period at the end of a sentence (stuck some other fun schtuff in their and called it TAI: Transitional Arts Inc.). Also put together some forms and sets of grappling moves, so that the applications would not have to be sought, but could be understood at the overt, intentionally trained level. Rainman and Mr. Robertson have each stated before, correctly, that the moves are already in kenpo. But, for my own experience, you've hit the nail on the head with the overt/covert thing. I want to practice a choke, knowing I'm practicing a choke, and learning to spot and take the opportunities that present for a choke or choke set-up; not be trying to divine a choke from form 4 when I'm in the middle of a row and some guys giving me his back.

But it is there. I asked once in another thread if anyone else saw the similarity btw going knee-up on a guy, and the wide kneel position. Turn the bod a bit, and switch the focus from looking to the horizon to looking down, and you're pretty close to the BJJ position.

Just some noise from the inside of my head.

D

 

[Rainman]

I was going over and over form I, phases 1-4, with one of my students and he said "Hey, this move right here... that could be a throw."
I just smiled and told him I was proud of his observation...and to look for more.
Problem with so many of these 'grappling' lessons in Kenpo is that
SURE the grappling is in there...but you've got to SEARCHED diligently for ( like these ) and then translated (per-say). Not really a 'gripe', just an observation. It's in there, but it's not the OVERT training that we engage in.
For instance, Jujutsu. Their grappling IS overt, so much so that it's pretty much all they are known for.
For us it's the striking that is OVERT.

DISCLAIMER: In the AKKI, there are a lot of grappling techniques and even drills now that are done on the ground. As the newest techniques are coming out we are finding many more joint locks, CHOKES (emphasis!! ) throws and such...and there aint no interpretation...it's in the manual descriptions and all. It's good stuff. In general though, it doesn't come until the higher belts (generally starting at Blue). Not a complaint...again....observation.

Your Brother
John

The system I have is not striking oriented. We use things like hands of ambigueity that came down from the old days... the system has it's roots in the 32 but has been evolved much like that of the akki and sl-4. I have an understanding of the 24 and the various sets that go with that variation but that is not my system base.

We have choke sets, manipulation set, plane set, rebound set and tiger and dragon form 1 and 2. It is just an older version that was updated, added to, and refined. Grappling, both standing and floor is overt to us- so are single and double leg takedowns, rolls, breakfalls, traps and whatever else can be used when live combat is simulated.

Your bro
Rainman

 

[Brother John]

The system I have is not striking oriented. We use things like hands of ambigueity that came down from the old days... the system has it's roots in the 32 but has been evolved much like that of the akki and sl-4. I have an understanding of the 24 and the various sets that go with that variation but that is not my system base.
It is just an older version that was updated, added to, and refined. Grappling, both standing and floor is overt to us.
Your bro
Rainman

Wow... That sounds really cool!!!
Honestly.

If you don't mind me asking, what's the lineage of your school??
((If this seems to be getting off track with this thread or is something you'd rather do privately...PM me Chad))

Your Brother
John

 

[MisterMike]

Sure it does. It is contained within contact manipulation the fourth range. A sub cat in controlled manipulaltion. Manipulation is the header of lock, choke, hug, or hold. I don't know what to tell you but try to not place absolutes. Absolutes are absolutely incorrect. In the version I study most of the teks have manipulations and finishing movements, they are taught that way. It is much better to work inside out, than outiside in.... Mainly because too much time is spent trying to get in without getting blasted from long range. This is a mistake. That is why the vast majority of karate people get hung out to dry by grapplers. They don't waste a bunch of time trying to fight long range. What does make AK unique is how striking is mixed with contact manipulation.

I'm not placing absolutes but it just ags me that some people think Kenpo is all inclusive. The truth of the matter is it's all been done before. There is nothing new. Just new interpretations. It seems your flavor of Kenpo is a bit different than most and contains more locks, holds, takedowns, etc. Generally, you do not see throws in Kenpo. It's not the trademark of the system. The good thing about Kenpo is that is is ever open to expansion and that is why we will begin to see more applications of the techniques. But they are nothing new to the arts.

 

[loki09789]

I disagree. Execution is always the issure. Failure to do so leads to what if, personalization and modification. Personalization really has to do with the concepts being using during the movements. At one point someone will know which combination of movements go particularly well with a constant set of concepts and universal laws in a specific order. And that also relates to environment... are you gonna box a would be attacker or are you going to use the entire environment to your advantage?

So do the technique according to the textbook or 'standard' way regardless of age, gender, health.... taken into consideration in anyway. How is a wheelchair bound KenpoKa going to execute the throw the same way as the person who can stand?

I would say it isn't execution as much as outcome that is the issue. What do you want to do? In this case put the Bad Guy on the ground. How do you do it? With techniques that work for you that are based on the foundation, but tailored to fit your personal make up and physical ability. The proving ground is always outcome. Execution is about form and systematic perfection, outcome is about survival. I'll take a sloppy throw on the street as long as it get's the job done. In training, though, I will work on making it work with the best execution.

 

[MisterMike]

What is not practical on the street is a throw such as a double split legged throw. Why? Your back is exposed and your hands are tied up while you are ending up in a side mount... On the ground. Primed to get kicked in the head, back, or ribs. Is it a great sporting movement... In my opinion, a very hard throw to defend against especially if the guy doing it is sneaky and knows how to position himself for the movement

I disagree. After taking a kick to the groin and a heelpalm top the face, the attacker MAY be quite suceptible to such a throw.

Nothing should be ruled out, and I think Kenpo does a lot of that on the premise of "practicality." I think a good ..no, GREAT martial artist can take any technique, not matter how "bad" and make it work.

 

[sumdumguy]

Wow... That sounds really cool!!!
Honestly.

If you don't mind me asking, what's the lineage of your school??
((If this seems to be getting off track with this thread or is something you'd rather do privately...PM me Chad))

Your Brother
John

Brother John,
Not all of the various sets where mentioned but you got the idea. Following the systemic structure of the EPAK is great, but if we truly want to understand the opponent, as you have said before, we must practice some of the things that they practice. The difference is that we extract that information from the Kenpo system and make it an overt exercise. This allows the student to understand and apply these variables within the confines of the Structured "base" Kenpo system, because the "base" system has been modified to accept these variables. To think that it is not neccassary is, well *** a nine, in my opinion. The motion based Kenpo System has much to offer, but is still limited by ones understanding and comprehension of the Laws of motion. Now I am babbling(sp?) You knew all this I am sure Chad's lineage is posted on the "Do you know your Kenpo Lineage" poll.

Mistermike had a great point about there being nothing new... We only re-discover things that may or may not have been lost. Mostly though, things that are lost to us as individuals. Great Post!

Thanks You guys!
:asian:

 

[Rainman]

I'm not placing absolutes but it just ags me that some people think Kenpo is all inclusive. The truth of the matter is it's all been done before. There is nothing new. Just new interpretations. It seems your flavor of Kenpo is a bit different than most and contains more locks, holds, takedowns, etc. Generally, you do not see throws in Kenpo. It's not the trademark of the system. The good thing about Kenpo is that is is ever open to expansion and that is why we will begin to see more applications of the techniques. But they are nothing new to the arts.

There are all kinds of things that are new. You mean not the trademark of your kenpo understanding... to me it is pretty normal. I have spent some time on the mat with Doc Chapel and he has plenty of grappling stuff as well. So does Mike Pick and some of his black belts namely David Valedez. I also see the AKKI doing stuff (such as D1- D2) that is new. Doc uses slap cks, pams, bams, My teacher uses levers and the nine planes. I have not been lucky enough to learn the hows and whats of the D1 - D2 stuff but I know why and it is the same reason as the use of the nine planes, and slap cks. One of my teachers BB's has a degree in sports medicine (of some sort) and his BB thesis was on some of the stuff that the Mills people are using. It is valuable stuff and I believe the things in this post are fairly fresh as far as different ways of teaching combat go.

Obviously yeah there is not really any new motion, but the ways of teaching and looking at AK are always gonna change because the concepts theories and principles allow for constant refinement. In fact they mandate it. In that context yes I feel there is nothing to debate.

I disagree. After taking a kick to the groin and a heelpalm top the face, the attacker MAY be quite suceptible to such a throw.

Nothing should be ruled out, and I think Kenpo does a lot of that on the premise of "practicality." I think a good ..no, GREAT martial artist can take any technique, not matter how "bad" and make it work.
Today 02:15 PM

I rule things out all the time. There is broken glass on the ground I am not going to role around in it therefore a throw that is designed to take the game to the ground has been eliminated. Why? Logic. Not so much practicality but what is the point of injuring yourself to injur someone else. That is probabley youth talking or inexperience. The goal is to walk away unscathed and not with a hole in your back from rolling on the glass.

If your attacker is not done with a kick to the groin and a heel palm to the mandible there was a failure to execute. Thrusting Salute... a short and powerful tek...

 

[Rainman]

So do the technique according to the textbook or 'standard' way regardless of age, gender, health.... taken into consideration in anyway. How is a wheelchair bound KenpoKa going to execute the throw the same way as the person who can stand?

I would say it isn't execution as much as outcome that is the issue. What do you want to do? In this case put the Bad Guy on the ground. How do you do it? With techniques that work for you that are based on the foundation, but tailored to fit your personal make up and physical ability. The proving ground is always outcome. Execution is about form and systematic perfection, outcome is about survival. I'll take a sloppy throw on the street as long as it get's the job done. In training, though, I will work on making it work with the best execution.

AK is the wrong art for handicaped folk. I am not saying for all, there are special people out there that will succeed in anything they do because they do not have quit in their makeup. But we rely heavily on our legs to position, align, and batter other people. We are full contact, I would not recommend anyone over 45 start this version. And I mean to say a fit person under 45. Not running a heath club or a babysitting agency.

Execution is outcome based. That is the whole thing with being sloppy- it is a gamble- I don't gamble. I know what is going to happen when I do it... of course unless I am fighting someone better. Then it is them who knows what is going to happen...

 

[loki09789]

AK is the wrong art for handicaped folk. I am not saying for all, there are special people out there that will succeed in anything they do because they do not have quit in their makeup. But we rely heavily on our legs to position, align, and batter other people. We are full contact, I would not recommend anyone over 45 start this version. And I mean to say a fit person under 45. Not running a heath club or a babysitting agency.

Execution is outcome based. That is the whole thing with being sloppy- it is a gamble- I don't gamble. I know what is going to happen when I do it... of course unless I am fighting someone better. Then it is them who knows what is going to happen...

Elitism of age and pride..... I thought the that the Kenpo principles were based on Universal laws, which would mean that those who have mastered them would be able to adapt them to fit any scenario - including instruction of 'imperfect' specimens. You have stated your specific tone and intentions within your training group and art, all respect to not advertising falsely. I would say that automatically labelling those programs that cater to children and a wider student base as baby sitting and health clubs is not only egotistical but 'superior'. You may be very good at what you do, but it seems that there are things that you are not willing to do, so that means that others would be very good at what they do - just not the same thing. Pride in yourself does not have to be the same thing as disrespect to others.

Execution is a verb, therefore it is a were addressing the attempt of an action. Out come is the results of said action. There is no implied or automatic quality factor in the word. There is 'good' execution' and 'bad' execution. These result in bad/good outcome. If you have sloppy technique, yet it results in a 'good' outcome in spite of it (on the street - of course in training you should be improving all the time), it is still a 'good' execution in my mind.

Is it good technique? NO, I agree. Is it effective? YES, because it WORKED. Is there room to grow and improve in the quality of the execution? ALWAYS.

If I follow your logic, I will not be effective until I have perfect execution. I just don't by that because there are many examples of real people/combatives who were bad technicians, but effective tacticians. They weren't pretty, they weren't graceful, but they got the job done.

 

[Rainman]

Elitism of age and pride..... I thought the that the Kenpo principles were based on Universal laws, which would mean that those who have mastered them would be able to adapt them to fit any scenario - including instruction of 'imperfect' specimens. You have stated your specific tone and intentions within your training group and art, all respect to not advertising falsely. I would say that automatically labelling those programs that cater to children and a wider student base as baby sitting and health clubs is not only egotistical but 'superior'. You may be very good at what you do, but it seems that there are things that you are not willing to do, so that means that others would be very good at what they do - just not the same thing. Pride in yourself does not have to be the same thing as disrespect to others.

Execution is a verb, therefore it is a were addressing the attempt of an action. Out come is the results of said action. There is no implied or automatic quality factor in the word. There is 'good' execution' and 'bad' execution. These result in bad/good outcome. If you have sloppy technique, yet it results in a 'good' outcome in spite of it (on the street - of course in training you should be improving all the time), it is still a 'good' execution in my mind.

Is it good technique? NO, I agree. Is it effective? YES, because it WORKED. Is there room to grow and improve in the quality of the execution? ALWAYS.

If I follow your logic, I will not be effective until I have perfect execution. I just don't by that because there are many examples of real people/combatives who were bad technicians, but effective tacticians. They weren't pretty, they weren't graceful, but they got the job done.

You are not following my logic. I am talking about efficiency. Execution relates to efficiency as I use it. Exact targets.

No AK is not just based on universal laws. It is conceptual. Many concepts are not universal laws.

I do not teach a commercial version. It is not for exercise it is for combat. Children still have soft skulls and cannot be hit in the head. It will damage them. I don't know how to teach full contact to a child. I would be devastated to learn something bad happened to them while learning the art. Therefore I remove that possibility. I have two students I teach for free... one is female one is male. There is head contact. In order to bring about a proper sequence of zone cancellation (not a universal law but a concept) there has to be head contact to get the anatomically correct positioning. People slip and sometimes hit hard and get damaged. They need to know what it is like on both sides of the coin. It is not much differnent than going to an NHB school. There is recognition by all parties of contact.

What I do is not for everyone- It is not an unwillingness to adapt it is what I like and understand. Some parents get disturbed when their child gets dinged up and then comes dojo politics... Just not for me, and don't want the drama. Some day maybe teach children if I can figure out how not to compromise what I do and give them something of value.