The 1986 Miami Shootout

[Grenadier]

Many of y'all already know of the 1986 firefight between the FBI and two bank robbers (Platt and Matix).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986

and for a medical commentary, Dr. Andersen's text:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

It's a good read for those of you who want to see what can happen in a firefight.

It's actually quite amazing what the human body can do when jacked up on adrenaline (no drugs were found in either Platt or Matix), and how someone can keep fighting after taking a good number of hits. Platt, after all, had been hit with numerous .38 Special bullets, 12 gauge 00 buckshot, and the infamous 115 grain 9 mm Winchester Silvertip, had a collapsed lung, a broken arm, a broken foot, and numerous other injuries.

I still find it ironic, that the FBI would blame the performance of the Silvertip... The bullet did exactly what it was designed to do; penetrate a specified amount, and expand a certain amount. What they failed to realize, though that the bullet had hit Platt in the arm first, penetrating several inches of flesh, before entering his chest.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the Dove's bullet didn't hit the arm first... My guess is that they would still be calling the Silvertip the ultimate round.

 

[Ronin Moose]

I've always wondered how quickly it could have been over, had the agents all been carrying the Sig 45ACP. I started carrying the model 220 in 45 ACP the same year as the shoot out. Of course I'm biased, but I believe the bad guys would have been down a lot sooner.

-Garry

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Dont bring pistols to a gunfight. There should have been way more long guns in the fight.

 

[Grenadier]

I've always wondered how quickly it could have been over, had the agents all been carrying the Sig 45ACP.

Probably not any different.

The wound from the Silvertip would have killed Platt sooner or later, and the .45 ACP doesn't really have any penetration advantages over the 9 mm. In the end, it was the single shot from a .38 Special +P to the head, at point blank range, that was the straw that broke the camel's back, even though that back had already been fractured several times...

Posted by Blotan Hunka:

Dont bring pistols to a gunfight. There should have been way more long guns in the fight.

Quite true. Handguns are feeble manstoppers compared to any centerfire long gun. The agents' tactics were the source of blame in this case.

A couple of the agents even lost their main issue handguns (some had them on the seats of their cars, and lost them in the crash), and they only had one long gun (the 12 gauge shotgun) between them all.

Here's some more reading, straight from the FBI. Lots of material, but it's well worth reading:

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm

 

[arnisandyz]

Just rented "In the Line of Duty" the FBI Murders with David Soul and Michael Gross. Love those short shorts.

Not a great movie, but interesting. Unbelievable how unprepared the FBI were on that stop, how devistating a long gun can be vs pistols and how much damage the human body can take.

 

[SGT_GRUNT_USMC]

That was a different era in law enforcement.In my department we have standard department issue shotguns (Remington 870's 12 gauge) in every black and white patrol vehicle as well as the individual officers who choose to carry and qualify with their personal shotguns and patrol rifles (AR-15's and Mini-14's).We also officer's that are certified in slugs with the shotguns.Every officer also is equipped with soft body armor and we have ballistic shields in the trunks of various patrol vehicles.And the above is just what patrol has,SWAT has a whole lot more.My department has had quite a few recent "active shooter" incidents that were either contained or resolved prior to the arrival of SWAT.

 

[SKB]

When I was a young Marine I had the chance to train with one of the FBI agents who responded to the shooting and was involved with the investigation. The two things I picked up from talking to the agent were. They were not trained to be involved in 'gun fights', head shots were not taught and tatics were lacking!!! They were trained to be police not to be involved in a major gun fight. The caliber of ammo and all that is just BS.

You have to know how to use the tools you have. Even if I got a .22 and someone else has a "super dupper kill'em rifle" I can still kill you if you have no idea about shooting and moving or cover and concelment.

 

[Grenadier]

That was a different era in law enforcement.In my department we have standard department issue shotguns (Remington 870's 12 gauge) in every black and white patrol vehicle as well as the individual officers who choose to carry and qualify with their personal shotguns and patrol rifles (AR-15's and Mini-14's).We also officer's that are certified in slugs with the shotguns.Every officer also is equipped with soft body armor and we have ballistic shields in the trunks of various patrol vehicles.And the above is just what patrol has,SWAT has a whole lot more.My department has had quite a few recent "active shooter" incidents that were either contained or resolved prior to the arrival of SWAT.

Good to hear that y'all have better equipment and training. Are they issuing Type III or IIIa body armor?

I figured that most departments would have done this, especially after the Hollywood bankrobbery.

 

[rmclain]

Many of y'all already know of the 1986 firefight between the FBI and two bank robbers (Platt and Matix).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986

and for a medical commentary, Dr. Andersen's text:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

It's a good read for those of you who want to see what can happen in a firefight.

It's actually quite amazing what the human body can do when jacked up on adrenaline (no drugs were found in either Platt or Matix), and how someone can keep fighting after taking a good number of hits. Platt, after all, had been hit with numerous .38 Special bullets, 12 gauge 00 buckshot, and the infamous 115 grain 9 mm Winchester Silvertip, had a collapsed lung, a broken arm, a broken foot, and numerous other injuries.

I still find it ironic, that the FBI would blame the performance of the Silvertip... The bullet did exactly what it was designed to do; penetrate a specified amount, and expand a certain amount. What they failed to realize, though that the bullet had hit Platt in the arm first, penetrating several inches of flesh, before entering his chest.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the Dove's bullet didn't hit the arm first... My guess is that they would still be calling the Silvertip the ultimate round.

When I conducted my kinetic energy/linear momentum studies with Ft. Worth PD, the firearms examiner showed me a book that was written based upon the study conducted after the 1986 shootout. I can't remember the title though. Can anyone help with this?

R. McLain

 

[Grenadier]

When I conducted my kinetic energy/linear momentum studies with Ft. Worth PD, the firearms examiner showed me a book that was written based upon the study conducted after the 1986 shootout. I can't remember the title though. Can anyone help with this?

R. McLain

I believe that you're referring to William French Anderson's writings. Chilling, to say the least, and it shows what just a determined human being is capable of doing.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006FAIL0/104-7957537-6163139?/sportsreccommuni

Platt ended up eating 4 rounds to the head and neck area.