Swords – I want to know more

[Xue Sheng]

I have always been interested in swords but either due to expense or space I have not been able to pursue that like I would like to. But now that I am older I think I would like to pursue this a bit more.

So how does one learn about swords? Not how to use them, although that is of interest as well, but I already train with swords and I am looking into getting more training but that’s another story. Not where to buy good ones, I know that for the style I train already. What I am looking for is how you learn to understand what you’re looking at when you look at a sword.

Example; I was in China and saw a sword (a Dao) that I was told was rather old and for sale, not cheap by Chinese standards but rather cheap by western standards (I think) if it was in fact what it was alleged to be. OK I know it looked old and a bit used actually and I know it was a bit heavier than the typical Dao you get today with pretty good balance, but that is all I could really tell about it. I do not know if it is actually old or a new sword made to look old so they could jack up the price.

Where can one learn about swords and are there experts that appraise them and if so how the heck did they become an expert?

 

[Flying Crane]

damn good questions.

My experience with swords lies mostly with new pieces. I really don't know much about old or antique pieces so I can't even hazard a guess at that kind of thing.

My interest in swords is primarily in training, so what is important to me is that a piece is made to a standard of quality to allow this. I don't worry about whether or not it follows a certain historical design or something. I just focus on whether it's a good design, even if it's a new design. I think this is reflected in the hilts that I have built. They do not follow any historical pattern, but I find them comfortable in the hand, and they work for me. I just built them based on what seemed to me like useful features.

Even tho it is highly unlikely that I will ever walk onto a battlefield with sword in hand, I like to know that the pieces I work with have that capability. I appreciate the realism.

So I could share a little bit of what I know about modern swords, but I don't know much about the old ones. I do know that there are appraisers out there, but how they gain their expertise is something I don't know. I guess it's a lot of research, knowing something about the manufacture techniques and methods of a certain period in a certain geographic region, knowing what kinds of materials and resources would have been available to the people at that time and place, and what resources might have been available thru trade with other regions. Particularly with Japanese swords, a familiarity with prominent historical and current smiths would be very important, to identify their work and spot a fraud. I recall seeing a book once upon a time, listing a whole bunch of blades made by Japanese smiths. Pretty thick and expensive book, I don't recall what it was called, but if I can find it I'll post a link. I think there could be a lot of history, anthropology and archaeology involved in this kind of research, and I suppose it would be focused on the cultures whose swords you are interested in. Visiting museums and getting permission to examine real weapons up close would be a good idea, but I don't know how you go about doing that.

I assume you are primarily interested in Chinese swords, but maybe it goes beyond that. I have an affinity for European swords as well, but my training is Chinese so my pieces tend to be of an appropriate design for that.

Happy hunting!

 

[shesulsa]

I think we have a couple of folks here who are far more knowledgeable about swords than I, so I defer to them.

One go-to book on understanding some japanese swordsmanship is "Iai - The Art of Drawing the Sword" by Darrell Craig. I don't know that it's the best out there, but it is packed with art-specific information with some traditional sword protocol.

As I understand it, any sword worth buying for cutting purposes will be certified and stamped by the smith or smithing company. There are a variety of grades for cutting. Determining age, however, would require a bit more of a trained eye.

I hate to refer folks to other forums, but swordforums.com is a *great* place for quality information. Be aware that the powers that be there are picky and have no time for people who wish to "self-train," etcetera. I already have some networking to do for another user here, so I'll ask around locally on opinions regarding expertise and knowledge regarding manufacture.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's a link at Amazon to a bunch of books on Japanese swords.

I believe The Connoiseur's book of Japanese Swords is the one I was thinking about, but there are some others here that look good, if this is where your interest lies.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I assume you are primarily interested in Chinese swords, but maybe it goes beyond that. I have an affinity for European swords as well, but my training is Chinese so my pieces tend to be of an appropriate design for that.
Happy hunting!

Thanks and actually it is Chinese and Japanese, but more towards the Chinese. Although my initial interest many moons ago was European. But I am also interested in just about any old Chinese weapon to be honest so I guess more Chinese than others.

I think we have a couple of folks here who are far more knowledgeable about swords than I, so I defer to them.

One go-to book on understanding some japanese swordsmanship is "Iai - The Art of Drawing the Sword" by Darrell Craig. I don't know that it's the best out there, but it is packed with art-specific information with some traditional sword protocol.

As I understand it, any sword worth buying for cutting purposes will be certified and stamped by the smith or smithing company. There are a variety of grades for cutting. Determining age, however, would require a bit more of a trained eye.

I hate to refer folks to other forums, but swordforums.com is a *great* place for quality information. Be aware that the powers that be there are picky and have no time for people who wish to "self-train," etcetera. I already have some networking to do for another user here, so I'll ask around locally on opinions regarding expertise and knowledge regarding manufacture.

Thanks and to be honest self-train or point me in the direction of training and education works too. I will check out the link and the book

Again Thanks

Here's a link at Amazon to a bunch of books on Japanese swords.

I believe The Connoiseur's book of Japanese Swords is the one I was thinking about, but there are some others here that look good, if this is where your interest lies.

And once again Thank you

 

[thardey]

Thanks and actually it is Chinese and Japanese, but more towards the Chinese. Although my initial interest many moons ago was European. But I am also interested in just about any old Chinese weapon to be honest so I guess more Chinese than others.



Thanks and to be honest self-train or point me in the direction of training and education works too. I will check out the link and the book

Again Thanks



And once again Thank you

My interest is towards European swords, and my experience is more in the physics of a sword, and the proper weights and balances, nodes, etc.

But from my understanding, the fastest way to learn about recognizing old swords is to learn about the smiths that made them, and the personalized stamps that each smith used to mark his work. These stamps can tell you when it was made, the quality of metal (since most of the ore was from local sources), the smith, or the business that made it (owned by the smith), among other things. Sometimes you can even find out who it was made for. Then you have to be able to spot forgeries, usually in the form of having a false patina added to the sword or furnishings, especially if it's brass (a la European style, anyway.)

I don't know the process in the East, but in the later west, swords were combined from different smiths. For instance, I could make the blade (my specialty in real life), then send/sell the blade to Flying Crane, who would build the furniture, and perhaps the scabbard, who would then sell it himself, or send it to a vendor to sell on his behalf. Even so, I would have stamped the blade with my signature, and the overall sword would be known as a THardey sword. Usually the furniture wasn't stamped, although it was as time-consuming and specialized as the manufacture of the blade.

If I was selling my blades to different people, they would look/balance different, depending on the skill of the smith who built the furnishings, and the tastes of who they were made for. Like, Flying crane could make them into a Chinese sword, but my friend in town could make an Italian Cut/Thrust sword out of roughly the same blade pattern.

Usually there were up to 4 people involved in commissioning/making a sword. There was a dealer, a bladesmith, the furniture smith, and the scabbard maker, at minimum. Often you could back-figure a lot if you knew who the bladesmith, or the dealer was. In Europe, at least -- maybe a similar system was used in China, but I don't have a clue.

Hope this helps!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks that helped.

I have been doing some checking today and I am finding this all rather interesting. There appear to be books on swords and sword makers of various eras and form various regions

*Iai - The Art of Drawing the Sword (as shesulsa posted)
*The Connoisseur’s book of Japanese Swords (as Crane posted)

And I found these

*American Swords and Sword Makers, Vol. II (Paperback)
*Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland (Hardcover)

And the only one I have found mentioned anywhere on Chinese weapons is this one and it is not translated into English

*Alex Huangfu's 'Iron and Steel Swords of China'

This is all pretty fascinating, or at least I think it is.

 

[shesulsa]

Xue, it would really be cool if you would post your thoughts on these texts here after you procure and peruse what you decide upon.

Thanks!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, it would really be cool if you would post your thoughts on these texts here after you procure and peruse what you decide upon.

Thanks!

Sure, I will keep you posted.

But as for this one

Alex Huangfu's 'Iron and Steel Swords of China'

I cannot read Chinese yet so it may be awhile.

I am thinking about picking this one up soon though
The Connoisseur’s book of Japanese Swords

 

[Steel Tiger]

Its a tough thing to get good information on Chinese swords. I think this is mostly because they so often written off as being of poor quality so nobody cares. This is, of course, not true but the stigma remains.

I have found that Yang Jwing Ming often supplies some useful information in his books on swords. Particularly Northern Shaolin Sword.

I know that Chinese swords were made using on eof two techniques. Sanmei is a three plate construction in which a core of hard steel is sandwiched between two plates of softer steel so that the inner plate protruded slightly so that a sharp edge could be achieved. The other technique was wumei, which was essentially the same but use five plates, two more of softer steel. This construction would allow for flowing patterns to be introduced down the length of the blade.

The jian has a subtle profile taper meaning its width reduces toward the tip, and they often have a significant distal taper in that they can be half the thickness at the point as at the hilt. There is, of course, differential sharpening (sharper at foible than forte). They have a flattened diamond or lenticular cross-section, usually with a visible central ridge (especially on diamond-shaped blades). Ming jian have openwork pommels for attaching lanyards. Qing jian often have a hole in the grip for the same reason. Hilts are usually winglike, swepted up or back, though some jian have disc-shaped hilts like that of a dao.

Dao designs are mainly based on those from the Ming dynasty. There are four common forms for the dao.

Yanmao dao "goose-quill sabre" An earlier form that is mostly strainght with a curve at the point of percussion.
Liuye dao "willow leaf sabre" The most common form which became the standard sidearm for cavalry and infantry.
Pian dao "slashing sabre" A deeply curved blade meant for slashing and draw-cutting.
Niuwei dao "oxtail sabre" A heavy blade with a flared tip.

The oxtail dao is that one you see most often in kung fu movies. It is often an anachronism as the form was not developed until the early nineteenth century. These are often erroneously called willow leaf swords.

There is also a duan dao or "short sabre". It usually takes the form of a willow leaf dao.

Hilts are canted to the blade for better cutting and control. The guard is disc-shaped and often cupped to prevent rainwater from getting into the scabbard.

There further complications to Chinese sword authentication and identification in that they imported swords and materials from all over the place.
The bulat steel of India was considered the best in the world for a long time and was traded all over the place. A lot found its way into China.
During the late Ming dynasty the government imported 10 000 blades from Japan. So there may be Chinese swords that have the characteristics of Japanese swords.
And there is the problem that they were just not as revered as the katana, for instance. They were clearly important (Jian, the Lord or Weapons, and Dao the General of Weapons), but every man and his dog carried a dao in the army. As a result they were not a collected item really until the late twentieth century.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Xue Sheng I do not think that Chinese made swords have paper's like the best Japanese swords do. This definately helps anyone to determine value. If a Japanese sword is under question you can dismantle it and then check the handle where a swordsmith general put's his signature or mark. Then you can check records etc. to see when they were alive and how old the sword could be and it's value can be determined. With Chinese swords I do not think you have this ability though to be truthful it is not my department.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hey Tim,

If you are interested in Midieval European swords, I believe Ewart Oakeshott is considered a heavy hitter and good authority. I have not read his works but he has several books out, some of which appear to be fairly weighty. You might want to check them out. Here's a link on Amazon to one of them:

http://www.amazon.com/Records-Medie...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197861287&sr=1-1

I want to get some of his works, but I just bought a whole pile of books on the Bow and Arrow, and how to make bows by hand the old way, and with Christmas spending, I need to hold off for a bit. But I think I'll get his books probably in the near future.

 

[Blindside]

Records of the Medieval Sword is a great book, but it doesn't list weights, and it really can't ever replicate in words what the feel of the sword is supposed to be. In his descriptions he may mention how something handles, but for the most part it was more a book about building a classification scheme, by construction characteristics.

Most of us have to rely on the better smiths and experts out there who have handled the extant originals and say "type Y swords tended to have this type of handling to them...."

Lamont

 

[Xue Sheng]

Look what I found

Most collectors of Asian arms are aware that the techniques of forging and tempering developed in China are the basis from which developed the reknowned Japanese swords. These skills arrived in Japan as early as the Sui and Tang dynasty China (AD 589 onward).

The Art of the Chinese Sword
http://www.shadowofleaves.com/Chinese_Sword_History.htm

I suspected that part of the reason there was not as much out there as there was for Japanese swords might be Chinese dynastic changes. Many Chinese Dynasties in the beginning of their reign tended to fear the knowledge of the previous and uprising and they were not above destroying and/or suppressing a lot of information.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Its a tough thing to get good information on Chinese swords. I think this is mostly because they so often written off as being of poor quality so nobody cares. This is, of course, not true but the stigma remains.

I have found that Yang Jwing Ming often supplies some useful information in his books on swords. Particularly Northern Shaolin Sword.

I know that Chinese swords were made using on eof two techniques. Sanmei is a three plate construction in which a core of hard steel is sandwiched between two plates of softer steel so that the inner plate protruded slightly so that a sharp edge could be achieved. The other technique was wumei, which was essentially the same but use five plates, two more of softer steel. This construction would allow for flowing patterns to be introduced down the length of the blade.

The jian has a subtle profile taper meaning its width reduces toward the tip, and they often have a significant distal taper in that they can be half the thickness at the point as at the hilt. There is, of course, differential sharpening (sharper at foible than forte). They have a flattened diamond or lenticular cross-section, usually with a visible central ridge (especially on diamond-shaped blades). Ming jian have openwork pommels for attaching lanyards. Qing jian often have a hole in the grip for the same reason. Hilts are usually winglike, swepted up or back, though some jian have disc-shaped hilts like that of a dao.

Dao designs are mainly based on those from the Ming dynasty. There are four common forms for the dao.

Yanmao dao "goose-quill sabre" An earlier form that is mostly strainght with a curve at the point of percussion.
Liuye dao "willow leaf sabre" The most common form which became the standard sidearm for cavalry and infantry.
Pian dao "slashing sabre" A deeply curved blade meant for slashing and draw-cutting.
Niuwei dao "oxtail sabre" A heavy blade with a flared tip.

The oxtail dao is that one you see most often in kung fu movies. It is often an anachronism as the form was not developed until the early nineteenth century. These are often erroneously called willow leaf swords.

There is also a duan dao or "short sabre". It usually takes the form of a willow leaf dao.

Hilts are canted to the blade for better cutting and control. The guard is disc-shaped and often cupped to prevent rainwater from getting into the scabbard.

There further complications to Chinese sword authentication and identification in that they imported swords and materials from all over the place.
The bulat steel of India was considered the best in the world for a long time and was traded all over the place. A lot found its way into China.
During the late Ming dynasty the government imported 10 000 blades from Japan. So there may be Chinese swords that have the characteristics of Japanese swords.
And there is the problem that they were just not as revered as the katana, for instance. They were clearly important (Jian, the Lord or Weapons, and Dao the General of Weapons), but every man and his dog carried a dao in the army. As a result they were not a collected item really until the late twentieth century.

Thank You

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng I do not think that Chinese made swords have paper's like the best Japanese swords do. This definately helps anyone to determine value. If a Japanese sword is under question you can dismantle it and then check the handle where a swordsmith general put's his signature or mark. Then you can check records etc. to see when they were alive and how old the sword could be and it's value can be determined. With Chinese swords I do not think you have this ability though to be truthful it is not my department.

I am VERY early in this process of trying to learn more but I do believe you are right. However I have found out that there are manuals on Chinese sword making that are still around and rather old. Problem is I do not read simplified Chinese much and most of these are likely in traditional Chinese which I do not read at all…. But my wife does

Hey Tim,

If you are interested in Midieval European swords, I believe Ewart Oakeshott is considered a heavy hitter and good authority. I have not read his works but he has several books out, some of which appear to be fairly weighty. You might want to check them out. Here's a link on Amazon to one of them:

http://www.amazon.com/Records-Medie...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197861287&sr=1-1

I want to get some of his works, but I just bought a whole pile of books on the Bow and Arrow, and how to make bows by hand the old way, and with Christmas spending, I need to hold off for a bit. But I think I'll get his books probably in the near future.

I am interested in Medieval swords, thanks and I too have to take it easy on the spending due to the season. I am going to get the book you previously listed on Japanese swords and I am going to get another (that shows I am getting old and is completely unrelated to this) on the history of Classical music (what can I say I am a frustrated ex-musician). But that will about do it for spending on me before Christmas.

Records of the Medieval Sword is a great book, but it doesn't list weights, and it really can't ever replicate in words what the feel of the sword is supposed to be. In his descriptions he may mention how something handles, but for the most part it was more a book about building a classification scheme, by construction characteristics.

Most of us have to rely on the better smiths and experts out there who have handled the extant originals and say "type Y swords tended to have this type of handling to them...."

Lamont

Thanks.

This made me remember a friend of mine from many years ago that had an old Islamic sword that he let me hold (once and only once) that was one damn heavy sword with a hand grip that I could barely fit my hand on. That had to be one strong guy with small hands to wield that thing.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Look what I found



The Art of the Chinese Sword
http://www.shadowofleaves.com/Chinese_Sword_History.htm

I suspected that part of the reason there was not as much out there as there was for Japanese swords might be Chinese dynastic changes. Many Chinese Dynasties in the beginning of their reign tended to fear the knowledge of the previous and uprising and they were not above destroying and/or suppressing a lot of information.

Nice site. Some excellent information.

 

[corwin1968]

Steel Tiger posted a very informative post on Chinese swords. I went thru a two-year period where I was fascinated by Chinese swords and I eventually purchased an antique jian blade that I had restored and I had a dao custom made.

Scott Rodell of www.sevenstarstrading.com is one of the most knowledgeable people in the U.S. and he's very passionate about Chinese swords and swordsmanship. If you have a serious interest then give him a call. You'll probably learn more in that conversation that you would in years of reading books.

 

[Langenschwert]

Scott Rodell

...is the man. What John Clements is to western swordsmanship, Mr. Rodell is to Chinese swordsmanship.

Best regards,

-Mark