Searching for the meaning..........

[Autocrat]

Hi folks.... newbie to the forums, so ber nice (please).

Details :
I've done martial arts for most of my life, prefering Shotokan and GoJu Ryu, yet picking up bits of White hand crane, Mantis, Judo, Almagamated Kickboxing and Boxing. The club I'm with at present instructs in Okinawan GoJu and Te, as well as Kobudo. It's great, and I'm improving on techniques that got sloppy over time.
yet I'm having a problem with the katas, as some of them are not Goju katas, infact, not even standard karate katas... we have one from aikido!

Question :
I am looking for information regarding the kata's we train in at my club. Below is a list of the kata;

San dan gi
Gekisai dai ichi
Gekisai dai ni
Pinan nidan
SaifaNaihanchi
Te ashi waza
Seiunchin
Sanchin Shisochin
Sanseiryu
Tensho
Seipai
Shin sai dai


Specifiaclly, any details pertaining to the origins, meastro/creator, styles that use it, years, what the name is meant to mean etc.

Any and all help would be appreciated!

Hope to here from you all,

Autocrat

 

[Autocrat]

Oh come on perople... the aikido folks have given me two possibles on one kata alone... surely you can do better.... just llok at the number of kata.... that leaves like thirty possible repsonses atleast.... LOL

So, no takers?

 

[TimoS]

Okay, one of these is easy. Pinan nidan. It is, as the name implies, the second kata in Pinan series (1 - 5). Itosu Anko created these, but when, I have no idea The styles that use this are, I guess, mostly Shorin styles or based on them. Naifanchi is also a kata used in at least some Shorin styles (I know only for sure that we are taught them and I believe Shorin ryu Seibukan does them also), although to be more precise, there are three Naifanchi kata (shodan, nidan and sandan). I don't think anybody knows for sure who created them.

Gekisai dai ichi and Gekisai dai ni I've heard of, but I don't think I've ever seen them. They were created by Chojun Miyagi and Nagamine Shoshin. That would mean that probably Goju ryu and at least some Shorin schools, such as Matsubayashi ryu, do those

 

[Autocrat]

Cheers!
See, One has helped... so more will follow ( shame I'm an optermist! I get so disapointed with life... and my spelling! LOL)

that was some help though, I'll have some more if possible!

 

[Yossarian75]

Dont know about most of your Katas apart from Pinan and Naihanchi. A popular explanation of the origin of the Pinans(peacefull mind) is that they were created from two forms Kusanku and Channan. Itosu Anko is said to have used the techniques from these two Katas to create the five Pinans. I think they were created sometime in the 19th century. Strange that you only do Ni dan.

There seems to be lots of versions of the Naihanchi history. One is that Bushi Matsumara brought Naihanchi cho dan back from China and Itosu Anko created the other two. I have also heard that it was originally one big Kata and split into three. It is said that Funakoshi spent the first ten years of his training studying Naihanchi. I have found this Kata to be full of close in grappling and striking techniques. I have heard things like it is for fighting with you back to a wall/in a paddy field/ on a boat but believe this to be untrue(although im sure you could), the applications I have learned are mainly defences against someone standing infront of you.

 

[TimoS]

Dont know about most of your Katas apart from Pinan and Naihanchi. A popular explanation of the origin of the Pinans(peacefull mind) is that they were created from two forms Kusanku and Channan. Itosu Anko is said to have used the techniques from these two Katas to create the five Pinans.

I have heard this also. I have also heard that Channan was just a "working name" of Pinan, meaning that before they were known as Pinan, they were known as Channan.
There are many similarities between Kushanku and the Pinan kata, so I think they are definetely related

One thing I forgot to mention previously is that many of the kata names are familiar to me, but only the names. I guess at least some of them are Goju kata, but since I've never studied Goju that is all I know about them.

 

[RRouuselot]

Question :
I am looking for information regarding the kata's we train in at my club. Below is a list of the kata;

San dan gi
Gekisai dai ichi
Gekisai dai ni
Pinan nidan
SaifaNaihanchi
Te ashi waza
Seiunchin
Sanchin Shisochin
Sanseiryu
Tensho
Seipai
Shin sai dai

Autocrat

Hi,
Just had a look at your profile and noticed you study Okinawa Te. Do you mind if I ask which "style" of Okinawa Te you study and from whom?

 

[Autocrat]

Okay... lets see.... the Pinan I get.... and alot of people have missunderstood the applications and usefulness and thought the name was derived from it, (believe it or not, I found a site weeks ago that thought Pinan translated into "fighting between the rice paddies" !). Good kata... I think we only do the second one because the moves differ from the others, and has stuff that our other katas lack.

As to the Okinawan te... I'd have to ask and get back to you.... but just to check if my grounding is right.... Naha Te shifted to GoJu, which birthed most of the Shori, Shuri and Shito styles as well as Wado...... sound about right?
the Te part is simply a form of practice/application of techniques that differ, (thus the Hard/Soft, High/Low, Push/Pull, Fast/Slow that appears in goJu and it's descendents, and appears to be missing in most other forms...... sound reasonable?

I'll be back tonight with an answer regarding the Te.... I know my father taught me some as a kid, yet I'll dig out some documents to figure where / whom it originated.

You do know I'm in England - yes?

Comsidering where you are and what you do, I'm guessing you'd be handy to know for information etc!

Back later!

 

[TimoS]

Okay... lets see.... the Pinan I get.... and alot of people have missunderstood the applications and usefulness and thought the name was derived from it, (believe it or not, I found a site weeks ago that thought Pinan translated into "fighting between the rice paddies" !).

I think you're referring to Naifanchi here

Naha Te shifted to GoJu, which birthed most of the Shori, Shuri and Shito styles as well as Wado...... sound about right?

Not quite. Goju is from Naha, but Shuri styles are different. Of course there must have been some cross influence, but the Shorin styles are (mainly) Shuri te (with some Tomari te mixed in), so they aren't Goju derived

 

[Autocrat]

uhum... (*cough* to hide the embarassment!)
Can't believe I did that with the Kata names....for the past week I've been trawling through books and the net gleaming info and fact from myth and dung.... as well as finding Kanji, and now I'm getting things confused by myself! Damn I need a break!
LOL
So - Pinan/Heian etc. = peace and harmony / rest / tranquility etc., right?
Nai han chi / naifuan chi... /chin/shi/shin etc.... is the fighting with their guard / fighting within domain etc.... right?


As for the GoJu / Shuri/Shito etc..... a little confused... as a lot of the GoJu katas went into those, and the okinawan Te and Okinawan GoJu come from Gibo Shuri - Naha city... don't they? It's more than possible that I've jumbled things in my head... thank god I keep notes.... all I have to do is find them, read them.... arggghhh!


need nicotene...caffine.....brain!
LOL

I'll go look again... more than likely you are correct, so maybe this time when I read it all, I'll remember the right stuff!

 

[TimoS]

As for the GoJu / Shuri/Shito etc..... a little confused... as a lot of the GoJu katas went into those, and the okinawan Te and Okinawan GoJu come from Gibo Shuri - Naha city... don't they? It's more than possible that I've jumbled things in my head... thank god I keep notes.... all I have to do is find them, read them.... arggghhh!

I guess your confusion comes from looking at Shito ryu. Shito ryu founder Kenwa Mabuni was a "kata collector" and you can find lots and lots of kata in (almost) all the Shito ryu variations. So in my opinion you should only look at kata from either Shorin schools (let's see now, there is Shobayashi, Kobayashi and Matsubayashi ryu, then there's at least Shorin ryu Seibukan, Shorinji ryu Kenkokan, Okinawa Shorinji ryu, Shorinji ryu Renshinkan (my old style, before our sensei split away from it)... ) or Goju to lessen the confusion, because Shito contains kata from all over.
As far as I know, the only Shorin style that has some Goju kata in it, is Isshin ryu. The founder studied with Chotoku Kyan (many Shorin styles derive from his teachings) and Chojun Miyagi (the founder of Goju ryu)

I am not familiar with what kata Goju ryu has, but here are some kata that can be found in most Shorin styles. Those are the ones I can remember off-hand. There are more than those, but I just don't know them ):
Pinan 1-5
Naifanchi 1-3
Wanshu
Ananku
Seisan
Chinto
Gojushiho
Bassai
Kushanku

There are more than those in these styles, but since those are the ones I'm at least somehow familiar with (meaning I've done more than once), I'm listing only those

Don't know if this helped you at all. I'm afraid I just confused you even more :EG:

As for the meanings of kata names, can't help you. I only speak a few words of japanese :wink2: And besides, many of the kata names are written with different kanji, so the meaning might change a lot.

 

[Autocrat]

No.. it didn't confuse me... it did help and made some sense as well.... I think what I did was miss a bit and lumped the Shito, Shuri and that together.... BAD AUTOCRAT!
*grin*

Thanks for pointing it out... I'll correct my notes!

SO.... anybody else going to chip in with some helpful pointers or corrections... all welcome!

 

[Autocrat]

... RRouuselot ...

I nanswer to your question/s... I think I found some relevant notes

As far as I know/remember, there was no affiliation with the club father trained with and any other club or orginisation.... but I think that the origins for the Te taught was from the Bugeikan honbu, (Gibo Shuri - Naha city) …. Taught by Higa…. Incorporated into a system called Seido.

As for a visual aid, it kind of looks like Tai Chi and aggressive aikido.

Does any of that sound familar, or have I looked through the wrong notes?
(please remember, my father taught me... HE went to the club... I was like 3 at the time!)

Please let me know if you still practice Okinawan Te and the origins for yours... I know little of it, I just know it's effective and kind of sets my GoJu apart from the norm.... the differences seem slight but make a big difference!

 

[Autocrat]

OK..... Looking for an ID on the KATA linked below....
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21114

Please help, as it is the only kata I have NOTHING ... absolutely naf all, on!!!!!!

 

[RRouuselot]

... RRouuselot ...

I nanswer to your question/s... I think I found some relevant notes

As far as I know/remember, there was no affiliation with the club father trained with and any other club or orginisation.... but I think that the origins for the Te taught was from the Bugeikan honbu, (Gibo Shuri - Naha city) …. Taught by Higa…. Incorporated into a system called Seido.

As for a visual aid, it kind of looks like Tai Chi and aggressive aikido.

Does any of that sound familar, or have I looked through the wrong notes?
(please remember, my father taught me... HE went to the club... I was like 3 at the time!)

Please let me know if you still practice Okinawan Te and the origins for yours... I know little of it, I just know it's effective and kind of sets my GoJu apart from the norm.... the differences seem slight but make a big difference!

I know which dojo you are talking about....as well as the teacher

 

[TimoS]

OK..... Looking for an ID on the KATA linked below....
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21114

Please help, as it is the only kata I have NOTHING ... absolutely naf all, on!!!!!!

Did I understand this right, that the only thing you do in this is step in one direction and get back ? Because then it might only be an exercise, not a "real" kata. I'm of course only guessing, but it kind of reminds me of our taisabaki drill, where you practise getting out of the way of an attack.

 

[Autocrat]

Only the footwork is included.... thus the ashi waza.... yet we normaly perform the sequence with open hands in guard position and step in ronodji dachi.... then we may do it with single punches, double punches, spear hand, jab and hook etc...... or in sanchin, kiba or zenkutso dachi for variety.....
It's basically for the practice of advancing or retreating, facing off to the opponent and figuring evasion techniques....(I think some of the turns are the base for tai sabaki?)...

So, any ideas?

I've looked under Sobuko or what ever the drill for T-S is for evasion/footwork... no joy there either!