Sacrificial lamb or criminal master mind?

[Tez3]

The case of Gary McKinnon is the subject of a campaign to stop him being extradited to the USA for hacking into US military computers. McKinnon who has a severe form of Aspbergers could be sentenced to up to 60 years imprisonment and is thought to be at a high risk of suicide if moved forcibly to America. Charges against him here were dropped as it was found that his hacking caused no damage (other than embarassment at poor security) while on his hunt for UFOs which he believes the Americans have information and proof of but won't release.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/15/tories-gary-mckinnon


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...port-Aspergers-victim-facing-extradition.html

 

[CoryKS]

Sacrificial lamb or criminal mastermind, are those really the only two options? Regardless of his medical status and whether his hacking did any damage, the question really is did he break the law and should he be punished for it? I assume that would be determined in a court of law here if the UK agrees to extradite him. Their choice, I suppose. But, to use President Obama's (pbuh) favorite phrase, I think that the title of this thread represents a 'false choice'. Just because your misdeeds don't cause any damage doesn't mean you are innocent.

 

[Carol]

The initial diagnosis of Asbergers is typically made during childhood, but in McKinnon's case, the initial diagnosis was made on a 40-something year old man in the heat of legal procedings for international crime.

Man...if I'm ever in trouble, I want his defense attorney.

 

[CoryKS]

The initial diagnosis of Asbergers is typically made during childhood, but in McKinnon's case, the initial diagnosis was made on a 40-something year old man in the heat of legal procedings for international crime.

Man...if I'm ever in trouble, I want his defense attorney.

I know, right? This reminds me of Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles holding a gun to his own head. "Don't put me in jail or the hacker gets it."

 

[Tez3]

The initial diagnosis of Asbergers is typically made during childhood, but in McKinnon's case, the initial diagnosis was made on a 40-something year old man in the heat of legal procedings for international crime.

Man...if I'm ever in trouble, I want his defense attorney.

Well his barrister hasn't done that good a job as his case has gone through the House of Lords and the European Courts and he lost in both places having lost the original extradtion case.

He's admitted doing wrong, he says he's guilty but the sacrificial lamb/criminal mastermind piece is about whether he should be extradited or not. The argument is...is he sent as a sop to the Americans because their pride is at stake or is he tried here as a British subject facing British justice? Our government tends to roll over whenever an American President asks something and while it was American computers that were hacked (very easily by all accounts, he used commerically available software) shouldn't the Americans be satisfied to leave the trial and punishment to the UK?
If he were American and we asked for extradition how would you feel about that? should extradition be used to take Americans to the UK when the crime was committed in the States and vice versa?

the BBC article on it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4715612.stm

 

[CoryKS]

If he were American and we asked for extradition how would you feel about that? should extradition be used to take Americans to the UK when the crime was committed in the States and vice versa?

I'm a big believer in playing by the rules of whatever country you are in. If someone commits a crime in the UK, our government should send them over to stand trial, even if I don't agree with their standards for punishment. For example, the boy who was to be caned in Singapore for graffiti. I think it's a horrible punishment but, as a person living in that country, he knew or should have known that was a possibility when he chose to break their laws.

Internet crimes are a bit different, since you can break another country's laws without setting foot in that country. I don't know what the laws say on that, but the countries involved need to come to an agreement and then enforce it consistently, without making exceptions for people with medical conditions or other excuses.

Other possible scenarios: suppose I shot a mortar from New York over the Canadian boundary? Broke a law in Canada without touching Canadian soil. Should I stand trial? Suppose the US decided that I shouldn't be prosecuted because the round went off in an unoccupied space? Should Canada expect me to be extradited?

 

[celtic_crippler]

I agree and can't really add anything to what CoryKS has already said. That's pretty much the way I feel about it as well.

 

[Tez3]

I think the argument from McKinnons side of the fence is that he committed this crime because of his medical condition not that he shouldn't be facing trial because of it. The Aspergers diagnosis I think is the crux of the legal case his side is arguing, yes he's guilty but the condition he has is what makes him do it, he got fixated and couldn't stop until the police stopped him in 2002. There was no talk of extradition though until a new treaty had been signed in 2005, a long three years later. I think a lot of politics is involved in what is a fairly simple case he admits he broke the law, the CPS investigated found no proof of damage so wouldn't proscecute. The new treaty came up and the Americans asked for him to be extradited, our government got involved and hence the big hoohaw about it all.
While his diagnosis of Aspbergers is recent it was done by one of the most eminent people in the business, Simon Baron-Cohen so I would take it as read that it's a genuine diagnosis. There's few in the medical world here would would dispute it.

 

[Carol]

If he were American and we asked for extradition how would you feel about that?

I'm not offended by the idea, personally. I ran his name through Google News and saw mostly UK newspaper accounts of folks that were aghast that the U.S. wanted to extradite him. I can't say I would share their outrage.

If an American hacker in the US broke in to some institution of the British government and news got out that the UK wanted to extradite him for legal proceedings, I really don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

 

[Carol]

While his diagnosis of Aspbergers is recent it was done by one of the most eminent people in the business, Simon Baron-Cohen so I would take it as read that it's a genuine diagnosis. There's few in the medical world here would would dispute it.

The gentleman that created the Perl scripting language is also on the spectrum. Given the compulsion and pattern-matching skills required to hack in to a system, it doesn't surprise me at all that this fellow is too.

What I don't agree with is painting this fellow like he's some delicate flower that needs to be spoonfed three times a day otherwise he'll shatter. This fellow wasn't someone in an institution requiring round-the-clock supervision. He's a sysadmin that clearly has a decent head for analytics.

 

[geezer]

The argument is...is he sent as a sop to the Americans because their pride is at stake or is he tried here as a British subject facing British justice?

Our government tends to roll over whenever an American President asks something ...

If he were American and we asked for extradition how would you feel about that? should extradition be used to take Americans to the UK when the crime was committed in the States and vice versa?

I totally get how you Brits feel on this. Seems like there ought to be a better solution than for America to be perceived as "throwing her weight around again." Maybe we should offer the guy a job as a security consultant. ...I'm only half joking here.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out... especially if it ends up in American courts. At least under our current President, he has that option. Under the last guy it could have been "off to Gitmo".

 

[CoryKS]

I think the argument from McKinnons side of the fence is that he committed this crime because of his medical condition not that he shouldn't be facing trial because of it.

The medical condition may cause him to fixate on UFOs and whatnot, but the condition didn't make him hack into government computers. Biology compels people to have sex, but that's no justification for rape. There's a difference between what we want and how we get it.

 

[CoryKS]

I totally get how you Brits feel on this. Seems like there ought to be a better solution than for America to be perceived as "throwing her weight around again." Maybe we should offer the guy a job as a security consultant. ...I'm only half joking here.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out... especially if it ends up in American courts. At least under our current President, he has that option. Under the last guy it could have been "off to Gitmo".

er, yeah, good thing the new guy did away with all the old procedures.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I believe we should obey the laws we've arranged between our nations. There is an extradition treaty in place, and it covers this situation.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/pdf8/fco_pdf_usextraditiontreaty

 

[Tez3]

I don't honestly have an opinion on this as I only know whats been written in the media, I do find it odd however that the offences were committed before 2002 and nothing was said about it until years later.
My main thing about asking how you felt about it was that if convicted you would end up paying for him in prison whereas if tried and convicted here we would. The compromise might be if he was tried in America but served his sentence here, that might satisfy all counts.
It's certainly turned into a cause celebre here. One thing I noted too was how easy he said it was to hack into the systems, was this easy for him or easy as in anyone can do it? If it was just him that found it easy and as he seemed to do a lot of it, offering him a job might be an idea! Poacher turned gamekeeper, if he caused damage when he hacked it could be taken out of his pay!
I think too, the thing Brits see is that he's facing 60-70 years in prison if he is convicted in America whereas he's facing 10 here so to many peoples minds thats excessive for a crime without violence or weapons.

 

[Tez3]

The medical condition may cause him to fixate on UFOs and whatnot, but the condition didn't make him hack into government computers. Biology compels people to have sex, but that's no justification for rape. There's a difference between what we want and how we get it.

Rape is rarely to do with wanting sex. It's an assault using a sexual act to humiliate and or dominate, sometimes it's for revenge. there's more reasons for rape than just merely wanting your leg over, it's what makes it such a nasty crime.

 

[CoryKS]

"Redesign our security system, and we'll give you a peek at Area 51."

I like it.

 

[Carol]

I don't honestly have an opinion on this as I only know whats been written in the media, I do find it odd however that the offences were committed before 2002 and nothing was said about it until years later.
My main thing about asking how you felt about it was that if convicted you would end up paying for him in prison whereas if tried and convicted here we would. The compromise might be if he was tried in America but served his sentence here, that might satisfy all counts.
It's certainly turned into a cause celebre here. One thing I noted too was how easy he said it was to hack into the systems, was this easy for him or easy as in anyone can do it? If it was just him that found it easy and as he seemed to do a lot of it, offering him a job might be an idea! Poacher turned gamekeeper, if he caused damage when he hacked it could be taken out of his pay!
I think too, the thing Brits see is that he's facing 60-70 years in prison if he is convicted in America whereas he's facing 10 here so to many peoples minds thats excessive for a crime without violence or weapons.

That's the difference between only charging him on one count of fraud versus charging him with 6 or 7 counts of fraud. Our fraud punishment maxes out at 10 years as well. I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell that he'd get a sentence that stiff.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ill-psychotic-sent-U-S--High-Court-hears.html


No damage?

The U.S. government says the cost of repair totalled more than $700,000 (£436,000).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nt-U-S--High-Court-hears.html#ixzz0LLwSQ5n1&D
​

 

[Tez3]

"Redesign our security system, and we'll give you a peek at Area 51."

I like it.

What if the reason they want to expedite him is because they really do have proof of UFOs!! they want to put him away for life before he tells all and exposes them......



nothing like a bit of conspiracy theory mongering!

 

[Tez3]

That's the difference between only charging him on one count of fraud versus charging him with 6 or 7 counts of fraud. Our fraud punishment maxes out at 10 years as well. I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell that he'd get a sentence that stiff.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ill-psychotic-sent-U-S--High-Court-hears.html


No damage?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nt-U-S--High-Court-hears.html#ixzz0LLwSQ5n1&D​

The damage thing is odd, as the original investigation is supposed to have said there was no damage and it wasn't till three years later that the damage comes up so I'm thinking someone made a mistake somewhere but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to who.
I'm curious though as how hacking causes damage that can be valued in money terms? I know very little about computers etc so whats maybe obvious to some is lost on me lol!