Roles That The Student And Instructor Take

PhotonGuy

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When a student partakes in martial arts lessons this is how I see it in terms of the roles that the student and the instructor are supposed to take. Lets say you're using a car to get from point A to point B. In this case the sensei or the instructor would be steering the car, guiding it, telling it what directions it should take to get to point B. The student would be the engine, providing the drive, the effort and hard work that it takes to get to point B. The student has to do the work to learn the martial arts, the student has to put forth the effort and hard work to gain knowledge, skill, and ability in the martial arts, the instructor can't do it for them, but the instructor has to provide the guidance, the instructor has to tell the student what to do to make sure the student is doing it right, to make sure the student is working in the right direction.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That analogy seems vague enough to be useful, but also vague enough to be inaccurate if looked at too closely. I like the concept behind it, as long as I don't poke at it too much. Mind you, that's not a problem with the analogy in question - it's the same issue with all analogies, to differing extents.
 

dvcochran

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That analogy seems vague enough to be useful, but also vague enough to be inaccurate if looked at too closely. I like the concept behind it, as long as I don't poke at it too much. Mind you, that's not a problem with the analogy in question - it's the same issue with all analogies, to differing extents.
Well said.
I hear where the OP is going and agree with most of the latter reasoning. The analogy is rather hard to understand and , in the effort to explain the relationship, will make it harder for some to understand.
I would suggest saying IF the instructor is the steering wheel then the student is the car or the wheels, being guided by the instructor's input.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Maybe a simpler analogy is that the instructor is a set of bumpers (like for kids bowling), keeping the student on track. You let them go, so long as they aren't heading into the gutter. If they're going in a way that will cause problems, you nudge them back on track.
 

snake_monkey

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Here we go, Time to Vent - I visited my old Sensei this evening after expressing interest in starting Karate training again. He put me on probation period for a few months and won't even let me start training until later next month. This is definitely an ego check but I really put a lot into training and signed up the only current student who is my best friend. I only took a break for a year to get my life in order now Sensei is blocking my training with him and my best friend. It's a shame and my inspiration for Karate is totally down....I already have a Sifu, I recently met a good Muay Thai Coach, and numerous other potential outlets to train martial arts.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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Here we go, Time to Vent - I visited my old Sensei this evening after expressing interest in starting Karate training again. He put me on probation period for a few months and won't even let me start training until later next month. This is definitely an ego check but I really put a lot into training and signed up the only current student who is my best friend. I only took a break for a year to get my life in order now Sensei is blocking my training with him and my best friend. It's a shame and my inspiration for Karate is totally down....I already have a Sifu, I recently met a good Muay Thai Coach, and numerous other potential outlets to train martial arts.
I would have to ask what his reason is for the delay in starting, and for the probation. And what does he mean by "probation"? All of these could have reasons that aren't what my knee-jerk reaction suggests.
 
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PhotonGuy

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The point is, the student has to do the work, a student isn't going to get good at the martial arts without working hard, but the instructor has to tell the student how to do it right.
 

snake_monkey

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I would have to ask what his reason is for the delay in starting, and for the probation. And what does he mean by "probation"? All of these could have reasons that aren't what my knee-jerk reaction suggests.

Yes there is more to the story but Im not going into it now...perhaps its a tale for my biography. In any case Im interested in what your knee jerk reaction is. I am at a point where his reaction has simply led me to feel like I dont want to train there.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Yes there is more to the story but Im not going into it now...perhaps its a tale for my biography. In any case Im interested in what your knee jerk reaction is. I am at a point where his reaction has simply led me to feel like I dont want to train there.
I can tell you my reaction-I would probably just leave. But I'm not that into tradition. I can get that there might be reasons for it, the idea that you and your sensei could have an almost father-son relationship (especially with only 1-2 students, if that was intentional), but that's not for me. If that is the kind of relationship, and depending on what he expects you to do the next month rather than train (is it do nothing, beg at his feet, or does he need you to spend a month do cardio/exercise stuff to make sure that you get back in shape?), there may be nothing wrong with it. Or a lot wrong with it.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yes there is more to the story but Im not going into it now...perhaps its a tale for my biography. In any case Im interested in what your knee jerk reaction is. I am at a point where his reaction has simply led me to feel like I dont want to train there.
My knee jerk reaction is that he sees your departure differently than you do - sees something about it that was either insulting or is a bad showing for you. But that's based on two assumptions: 1) he means by those terms what I would mean, and 2) he'd use probation and such for the same reasons I would. Either or both of those assumptions could be incorrect.
 

snake_monkey

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My knee jerk reaction is that he sees your departure differently than you do - sees something about it that was either insulting or is a bad showing for you. But that's based on two assumptions: 1) he means by those terms what I would mean, and 2) he'd use probation and such for the same reasons I would. Either or both of those assumptions could be incorrect.

You may be right about both points but Im just going to say that he made it personal at our meeting and said things that really pushed me away. And to make a point of referencing the og post here - I see it as a total breakdown of the vehicle (for learning).
 

snake_monkey

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I can tell you my reaction-I would probably just leave. But I'm not that into tradition. I can get that there might be reasons for it, the idea that you and your sensei could have an almost father-son relationship (especially with only 1-2 students, if that was intentional), but that's not for me. If that is the kind of relationship, and depending on what he expects you to do the next month rather than train (is it do nothing, beg at his feet, or does he need you to spend a month do cardio/exercise stuff to make sure that you get back in shape?), there may be nothing wrong with it. Or a lot wrong with it.

Im gonna go with the latter - theres a lot wrong with it. And Im going to write an essay on what not to do when involved with the traditional martial arts in the modern age.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Im gonna go with the latter - theres a lot wrong with it. And Im going to write an essay on what not to do when involved with the traditional martial arts in the modern age.
As gerry said, only you can really judge that.

If you do write that essay, feel free to share it on here, I'm sure it'll generate a lot of discussion. Just make sure to avoid names-no fraudbusting allowed.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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You may be right about both points but Im just going to say that he made it personal at our meeting and said things that really pushed me away. And to make a point of referencing the og post here - I see it as a total breakdown of the vehicle (for learning).
Personally, I like Buka's analogy with the map/driver better. You can choose to follow the direction it's suggesting, or branch off however you want using the map, or just sit still and not go anywhere. I'm not sure where bad teachers would fall in here-maybe a map that's constantly changing, is just plain inaccurate, or is outdated?
 

skribs

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When a student partakes in martial arts lessons this is how I see it in terms of the roles that the student and the instructor are supposed to take. Lets say you're using a car to get from point A to point B. In this case the sensei or the instructor would be steering the car, guiding it, telling it what directions it should take to get to point B. The student would be the engine, providing the drive, the effort and hard work that it takes to get to point B. The student has to do the work to learn the martial arts, the student has to put forth the effort and hard work to gain knowledge, skill, and ability in the martial arts, the instructor can't do it for them, but the instructor has to provide the guidance, the instructor has to tell the student what to do to make sure the student is doing it right, to make sure the student is working in the right direction.

This depends on the art and the reason for taking it. If you want to be a professional MMA fighter, then it makes sense that your coach will be pushing you to know what you need to do MMA, and as you advance tailor the class to what you want to learn.

But if you're going to go into a large school with the goal of learning martial arts, your instructor is going to teach you with the curriculum of the school. The curriculum has been built to teach a large number of people martial arts, and is probably responsible for most of the instruction your instructors have received. It would be very arrogant of a student to try and tell the instructor what to teach.

I've recently started taking guitar lessons. At some point I'd love to be able to play the type of music I listen to, which is mostly very technical metal music. When I started talking to my instructor, he took that into consideration, but we didn't do metal. I started off with basic chords, learning the names of the notes, learning how to properly zone my hands on the fretboard, how to properly pick and strum. The first songs I learned were by the Beattles, Lynyrd Skynard, U2, and AC/DC. Only the last one of those is even creeping into the territory of the music I listen to (and I wasn't playing the hard parts). I'm learning a lot about playing guitar, and I'm trusting my instructor to get me to where I want to be.
 

KenpoMaster805

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The student role is to seek knowledge and infotmartion also to learn and to focus and to be motivated

The instructor role is to teach give information and give their student their knowledge and explained it step by step

Also the student and instructor can have a relation as friends that how me and my sifu are
 

isshinryuronin

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Obviously the instructor's role is to devise tortures for the student to endure and increase his tolerance for pain, all the while giving the student a false sense of proficiency due to automatic promotions.

The student's role is to sweat a lot, feed his instructor's ego, and blindly do techniques without understanding their meaning.

Note: There may be schools where the instructor sets high expectations and expertly guides the student in proficiency and understanding of the art, caring for his students as his extended family, and instills in them a desire to be the best they can be - If you're into that kind of thing.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Personally, I like Buka's analogy with the map/driver better. You can choose to follow the direction it's suggesting, or branch off however you want using the map, or just sit still and not go anywhere. I'm not sure where bad teachers would fall in here-maybe a map that's constantly changing, is just plain inaccurate, or is outdated?
In response to the bold part, could be any or all of those. Could also be a map not designed for the purpose (trying to drive around using a map for walking tours, for instance).
 

Buka

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In response to the bold part, could be any or all of those. Could also be a map not designed for the purpose (trying to drive around using a map for walking tours, for instance).

I've rethought this. I think it should be a GPS instead of a map. And the GPS should have a woman's voice telling me what to do and where to go. That way, I'll always feel at home.
 
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