Question for the BJJ guys

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Buka

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I usually start with the idea of getting people to relax in grappling. First off I work some breakfalls then into scissor sweep and push sweep from the guard to the mount. Bump and Roll from the mount with a transition to half mount and an armbar. Then onto how to do an armbar against someone resisting and or grabbing their arm and several ways to circumvent that. Then defense for the armbar both early and late game. Which typically gets us back in the guard and then I go into guard passes to crossbody or side control and then the hip switch to the mount and knee driven method to the mount. Then I introduce a bent arm lock from the mount and the defense against it. At some point I work in striking from the mount and taking the back when they roll over or turtle and then the rear naked choke as well as several defenses against the rear naked choke. Lots of relaxation and making sure guy's are just loose and working their technique and not muscling things.

Whoa, I'm too old to think too fast while reading!....breakfalls first. Then scissor sweep - so you would teach guard first, then scissor sweep? So guard first, then mount?
 

Brian R. VanCise

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In IRT out daily training follows this pattern:

Break falls
Weapons/Tools
Kicking
Hand Strikes
Trapping Hands and Joint Manipulation
Grappling

Before grappling I would work some take downs. Typically double leg, hip throw possibly with several variations. Then into a reguard and like what I posted above.
I like getting people started on the ground teaching them the scissor sweep and push sweep and then the bump and roll with a reguard fitted in there. I think these are essential for the beginner. In IRT I want my practitioners to have very developed sweep and reversal games. From a pure self-defense perspective I think this is essential.
 
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Buka

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In IRT out daily training follows this pattern:

Break falls
Weapons/Tools
Kicking
Hand Strikes
Trapping Hands and Joint Manipulation
Grappling

Before grappling I would work some take downs. Typically double leg, hip throw possibly with several variations. Then into a reguard and like what I posted above.
I like getting people started on the ground teaching them the scissor sweep and push sweep and then the bump and roll with a reguard fitted in there. I think these are essential for the beginner. In IRT I want my practitioners to have very developed sweep and reversal games. From a pure self-defense perspective I think this is essential.

Have patience with me, I'm old, slow and easily confused. So....as to the grappling aspect of a student's initial training, in order to teach scissor sweep and reguard, you would initially teach guard first, yes? And I assume closed guard?
 
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Buka

Buka

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Maybe this will help show where I'm coming from with the questions I have...which are many.

I do not teach Ju-jitsu, I don't know anything about teaching Ju-jitsu, not a thing, zip, nada. But I teach basic grappling which directly, one hundred percent, comes from Brazillian ju-jitsu and was taught to us by BJJ instructors for the express purpose of learning and ADDING to our own art - how to survive and win on the ground for self defense, and how to control on the ground specifically for Law Enforcement purposes. This was no small thing to me. It was perhaps the greatest influence on what I do, and what all my students have done since that time, which was 1992.

Subsequent to that initial couple of years, where we would hook up with our BJJ guide (again, it was grappling based on what our standup game already was, not straight BJJ) I then trained in a couple of BJJ schools. The first one was for four months while we awaited our two dogs release from a four month quarantine, then, for a year and a half, but sometimes only once or twice a week, in another BJJ school. I so loved that year and a half. But because of a rather nasty ethical issue, my wife and I had to quit. Such a shame. Still saddens me, kinda' pisses me off, too.

There have been many instances where I would take advantage of having a good jits guy around. I'd be crazy not to. I also have a very experienced grappling coach, who also trains with higher ranked BJJ guys on a regular basis. I've also competed in two BJJ tournaments, which were a lot of fun. (Man, did I get smoked)

But - in both schools I've trained in, we just sort of jumped in with whatever was being taught. I've never actually seen a day one BJJ or any other Jits style taught to all virgins with a day one, "this is where we start" class . That's why I'm asking all these questions. I'm curious and fascinated. I would never have expected any of you guys would have started with standup, but it sort of makes sense to me now.

I'm also very interested in any who teach any kind of grappling, even if it isn't your primary focus. I'm quite comfortable with the way I do it - but it's the way I do it, not necessarily the best way it should be done.

Anyway....that's why I'm so curious about your Day One instruction. Thanks again.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I would say I do not teach just a beginner class to start. So instead I teach in the order I listed above. Starting standing with weapons/tools, kicking, etc. down to grappling. On the ground I listed the ideal format meaning getting them to closed guard in some fashion and teaching the scissor sweep, push sweep to mount followed by the bump and roll and how to reguard. This is easy to achieve with private and semi-private lesson but a little harder with a group dynamic. Still it is achievable with a mixed class of beginners to advanced I just have to make sure I add in a technique or two appropriate to the more advanced students.
 

Tony Dismukes

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But - in both schools I've trained in, we just sort of jumped in with whatever was being taught. I've never actually seen a day one BJJ or any other Jits style taught to all virgins with a day one, "this is where we start" class .

Your experience is not uncommon and this is (IMO) a huge problem in BJJ instruction.

To be clear, there are schools that do a good job of giving beginners their own class which covers all the fundamental concepts and techniques they need to know before going off into the crazy stuff. Unfortunately there are a lot more that just dump everybody into the same class working on whatever the instructor feels like covering that day.

What can happen in this second type of school is that a beginner will walk in, be introduced to some crazy-looking move that they have no context for understanding, and then get tossed into grappling for half an hour with sharks who can tie him or her in knots at will. Typically only the toughest, most determined, and most talented students will stick around for more of this experience. In other words, these schools are filtering out the people who most need jiu-jitsu for self-defense. :(

Full disclosure - my gym is sort of a blend of these two extremes. We have multiple classes per day, 7 days per week. In order to cover all these classes, we end up with a large, ever-rotating roster of instructors, each having their own approach to teaching. Some are good about having a solid beginner's curriculum, some are not.
 

Hanzou

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Your experience is not uncommon and this is (IMO) a huge problem in BJJ instruction.

To be clear, there are schools that do a good job of giving beginners their own class which covers all the fundamental concepts and techniques they need to know before going off into the crazy stuff. Unfortunately there are a lot more that just dump everybody into the same class working on whatever the instructor feels like covering that day.

What can happen in this second type of school is that a beginner will walk in, be introduced to some crazy-looking move that they have no context for understanding, and then get tossed into grappling for half an hour with sharks who can tie him or her in knots at will. Typically only the toughest, most determined, and most talented students will stick around for more of this experience. In other words, these schools are filtering out the people who most need jiu-jitsu for self-defense. :(

Full disclosure - my gym is sort of a blend of these two extremes. We have multiple classes per day, 7 days per week. In order to cover all these classes, we end up with a large, ever-rotating roster of instructors, each having their own approach to teaching. Some are good about having a solid beginner's curriculum, some are not.

Actually that's exactly how my early years of Bjj were. We had 4 fundamental classes, with Monday and Wednesday being at 6, and Tuesday and Thursday being at 7:30.

The earlier classes were filled with a lot people, and a lot of upper belts. I really disliked those classes as a white belt, because the upper belts would just completely dominate you, and not give you a chance to try your technique. I would go home feeling worthless and weak, and many times I really considered quitting.

Fortunately the Tuesday and Thursday classes were smaller and filled with white belts. When we rolled, I actually was able to experiment and test my fundamentals on them. Also the instructor was more able of giving me more individual attention. I loved those classes, and it was those classes that kept me in Bjj.

I can only imagine if I couldn't make it to the later classes. I probably wouldn't be in Bjj today.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What is the very first thing you teach them? Where would you start?

If you just look at MA training in general, what will you teach your students on day one? What kind of problems do you need your students to solve?

They will need to deal with

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's kick,
- wrestler's leg shooting.

The ground game training should be after that and not before.
 
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Buka

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If you just look at MA training in general, what will you teach your students on day one? What kind of problems do you need your students to solve?

They will need to deal with

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's kick,
- wrestler's leg shooting.

The ground game training should be after that and not before.

Yes, I agree, the ground game comes after stand up for us - because I am primarily a striker. The first thing I teach (after the rules of the dojo) is stance. Then moving in stance. Then basic punching, usually lead hand, then rear hand.
 

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Id start off with the basic ground positions and give them the tips on how to maintain a position because it takes strong positions to get those submissions. Also how to cover from being struck on the ground and how to properly get back up to your feet.

That would make a goo first few lessons and you can always add a very basic submission here and there to keep them entertained.
 
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Buka

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Id start off with the basic ground positions and give them the tips on how to maintain a position because it takes strong positions to get those submissions. Also how to cover from being struck on the ground and how to properly get back up to your feet.

That would make a goo first few lessons and you can always add a very basic submission here and there to keep them entertained.

So what would you consider the "basic ground positions"? That covers a lot of ground. (no pun intended) My OP question was concerned with the "first" thing you would teach them about the ground game. Mount? Escape from mount?
 

ST1Doppelganger

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So what would you consider the "basic ground positions"? That covers a lot of ground. (no pun intended) My OP question was concerned with the "first" thing you would teach them about the ground game. Mount? Escape from mount?

When I think about it Ive always taught the basic guard and I guess the shrimp along with the get up out of the guard first but im not a BJJ instructor it's just to my sisters children and wife that ive taught more for self defense scenarios then competition.

You are correct about the positions being allot of info but you can cover quite a bit of it in a few lessons.
 
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Buka

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When I think about it Ive always taught the basic guard and I guess the shrimp along with the get up out of the guard first but im not a BJJ instructor it's just to my sisters children and wife that ive taught more for self defense scenarios then competition.

You are correct about the positions being allot of info but you can cover quite a bit of it in a few lessons.

Do you teach any mount position before guard? I think understanding the mount for young kids is so very important. It's a position that comes natural to kids to torment one another. (the bastards!)
With the wife....do you instruct her in an RNC?

I'm not looking to critique, just curious what everybody does.
 

ST1Doppelganger

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Do you teach any mount position before guard? I think understanding the mount for young kids is so very important. It's a position that comes natural to kids to torment one another. (the bastards!)
With the wife....do you instruct her in an RNC?

I'm not looking to critique, just curious what everybody does.

I teach the mount later on but I feel the scarf holds & side control are better for children-teens and also for women.

I do cover the mount but i more or less teach it for transition since I prefer knee on chest and knee on belly for self defense scenarios.

I just feel that mount isn't the easiest position for a lighter person to hold and that other positions allow more secured positioning to attack vulnerable vital points or allow you to get to your feet quicker.

I have my own mats so thats why I've taken the time to show my family this stuff the only other people I've taught grappling to were friends that had prior judo or jujitsu exp and we would just practice different techniques and drills on each other but I wouldn't consider it teaching since both of us were learning.

Sorry but what does RNC mean?
 
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Buka

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Sorry, "rear naked choke". I type so much I get lazy.
 

ST1Doppelganger

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Sorry, "rear naked choke". I type so much I get lazy.

No need to be sorry and yes i teach my wife and all the people i train with the RNC and also a choke combo I came up with that consists of a guillotine transition to a front figure 4 arm choke to pivoting out to an arm scissor choke/crank. Its a bit hard to understand that combo but think of it as tool i use to show alternative choke/crank to defend against a sloppy double or single leg take down.


But for women's self defense i feel chokes are essential.
 
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